New (not legal) Sign at Mall in TX

This is a discussion on New (not legal) Sign at Mall in TX within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This new sign is at Post Oak Mall in College Station, TX. I know it is not a legal 30.06 sign, so should have no ...

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    Member Array john.shewchuk's Avatar
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    New (not legal) Sign at Mall in TX

    This new sign is at Post Oak Mall in College Station, TX.

    I know it is not a legal 30.06 sign, so should have no effect on CHL holders, but what are your thoughts?

    I will email the College Station chief of police and inform him that any arrest would be illegal, as per the real 30.06 statute.
    Owner, Maple Leaf Firearms LLC (07 FFL/02SOT)

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    Member Array TailRunner's Avatar
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    What is the statute?
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    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    I'm no lawyer but as I read this arrest for criminal trespass is warranted under this statue.

    Texas Penal Code - Section 30.06. Trespass By Holder Of License To Carry Concealed Handgun:

    § 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
    HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
    holder:
    (1) carries a handgun under the authority of
    Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
    without effective consent; and
    (2) received notice that:
    (A) entry on the property by a license holder
    with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
    (B) remaining on the property with a concealed
    handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

    (b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
    if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
    act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
    communication.
    (c) In this section:
    (1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
    30.05(b).
    (2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
    Section 46.035(f).
    (3) "Written communication" means:
    (A) a card or other document on which is written
    language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
    Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
    handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
    Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
    property with a concealed handgun"; or
    (B) a sign posted on the property that:
    (i) includes the language described by
    Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
    (ii) appears in contrasting colors with
    block letters at least one inch in height; and
    (iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
    clearly visible to the public.
    (d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
    (e) It is an exception to the application of this section
    that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
    owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
    other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
    the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

    Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1261, § 23, eff. Sept. 1,
    1997. Amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, § 9.24, eff.
    Sept. 1, 1999; Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1178, § 2, eff. Sept. 1,
    2003.
    There are two types of people who carry concealed weapons...Responsible ones and Irresponsible ones...which are you...

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    Anybody else notice that in Spanish it's section 30.05?
    Taurahe and CigarStix like this.

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    The mall has recently posted the 30.05 as if it were a 30.06. Now they are posting incorrect 30.06 signs-- and certainly not
    at each entry. The vestiges of the old 30.05 sign are still visible. It appears that they still incorrectly reference
    30.05 in the Spanish version, and use an unenforceable 30.06 in English. Take a careful look at the photo and you will see this.
    My take is that they are just trying to scare away unlicensed unknowing unlicensed carriers, or else they have received very poor advice from whomever they asked-- if they asked. Hmm.

    Personally, I think it is best to not call the police chief. At this juncture the signs aren't valid and I would think the police
    are aware of what is and isn't a valid sign. If the police chief had this pointed out to him I have a hunch the mall would
    quickly put up real 30.06 signs. (OTOH, I'd not like my taxes to go up because of a false arrest.)

    My take, these signs are invitations to license holders to carry (same as "Unlicensed Possession" signs at food places serving alcohol are) and intended to scare the ignorant-- who of course never took the CHL course or read the handbook, but also
    don't follow rules as their unlicensed carry in the mall is illegal anyway.

    Happily I seldom go in there. I can go 9 months to a year without the need. Compared to 30-40 years back, or even 20 years back, we now have plenty of other places to shop for almost anything.

    BTW, maybe I didn't look carefully but I entered through Penny's today and didn't see any sign on their door or on the door
    from Penny's to the mall. Yesterday I entered Sears automotive and didn't see any sign.

    The mall management is either screwing this up by the numbers or they are being cagy and know the signs aren't valid.

    Meanwhile, I guess we do need to be extra careful going there as they could put new legal ones up all over at any time.

    So, let's all be careful, and shop elsewhere.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
    I'm no lawyer but as I read this arrest for criminal trespass is warranted under this statue.

    Texas Penal Code - Section 30.06. Trespass By Holder Of License To Carry Concealed Handgun:

    § 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
    HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
    holder:
    (1) carries a handgun under the authority of
    Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
    without effective consent; and
    (2) received notice that:
    (A) entry on the property by a license holder
    with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
    (B) remaining on the property with a concealed
    handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.

    (b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
    if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
    act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
    communication.
    (c) In this section:
    (1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
    30.05(b).
    (2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
    Section 46.035(f).
    (3) "Written communication" means:
    (A) a card or other document on which is written
    language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
    Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
    handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
    Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
    property with a concealed handgun"; or
    (B) a sign posted on the property that:
    (i) includes the language described by
    Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
    (ii) appears in contrasting colors with
    block letters at least one inch in height; and
    (iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
    clearly visible to the public.
    (d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
    (e) It is an exception to the application of this section
    that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
    owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
    other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
    the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

    Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1261, § 23, eff. Sept. 1,
    1997. Amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, § 9.24, eff.
    Sept. 1, 1999; Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1178, § 2, eff. Sept. 1,
    2003.
    No, it is a TX specific thing and the sign has to meet the specification--exact language, with precise wording, and with the described lettering size and contrast. The word "identical" isn't in that piece of statute for an idle purpose. It means what
    it says. The language must be identical not similar to what is in the code. Same for the part about contrasting
    colors in 1 inch block letters, conspicuous manner, and clearly visible. I can tell you none of these
    are the case -so far- at the mall.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  9. #8
    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The mall has recently posted the 30.05 as if it were a 30.06. Now they are posting incorrect 30.06 signs-- and certainly not
    at each entry. The vestiges of the old 30.05 sign are still visible. It appears that they still incorrectly reference
    30.05 in the Spanish version, and use an unenforceable 30.06 in English. Take a careful look at the photo and you will see this.
    My take is that they are just trying to scare away unlicensed unknowing unlicensed carriers, or else they have received very poor advice from whomever they asked-- if they asked. Hmm.

    Personally, I think it is best to not call the police chief. At this juncture the signs aren't valid and I would think the police
    are aware of what is and isn't a valid sign. If the police chief had this pointed out to him I have a hunch the mall would
    quickly put up real 30.06 signs. (OTOH, I'd not like my taxes to go up because of a false arrest.)

    My take, these signs are invitations to license holders to carry (same as "Unlicensed Possession" signs at food places serving alcohol are) and intended to scare the ignorant-- who of course never took the CHL course or read the handbook, but also
    don't follow rules as their unlicensed carry in the mall is illegal anyway.

    Happily I seldom go in there. I can go 9 months to a year without the need. Compared to 30-40 years back, or even 20 years back, we now have plenty of other places to shop for almost anything.

    BTW, maybe I didn't look carefully but I entered through Penny's today and didn't see any sign on their door or on the door
    from Penny's to the mall. Yesterday I entered Sears automotive and didn't see any sign.

    The mall management is either screwing this up by the numbers or they are being cagy and know the signs aren't valid.

    Meanwhile, I guess we do need to be extra careful going there as they could put new legal ones up all over at any time.

    So, let's all be careful, and shop elsewhere.
    Hop...help me out here...not that it matters to me I will probably never get to Texas, but I posted 30.06 and read it and I am having trouble seeing where the mall sign is illegal..I'm missing something here........
    There are two types of people who carry concealed weapons...Responsible ones and Irresponsible ones...which are you...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
    Hop...help me out here...not that it matters to me I will probably never get to Texas, but I posted 30.06 and read it and I am having trouble seeing where the mall sign is illegal..I'm missing something here........
    It isn't illegal. They can post whatever they want. It is invalid as far as making carry by a license holder an act of criminal
    trespass because the signs posted at the mall don't meet the prescribed language, letter size, contrast, conspicuousness, requirements, and are not on each entry-- as of this afternoon.

    The sign is especially screwy due to the fact that the Spanish language portion references the wrong part of the code-- 30.05
    instead of 30.06. [sarcasm] Maybe the mall management meant to let our Spanish speaking neighbors carry? [/sarcasm]

    Our OP has a point, to a point, that it would be best if the police chief were informed the signs aren't legal so no one gets
    arrested when no crime has been committed. OTOH, I have this gnawing thought that if he is informed the error will quickly
    be transmitted to the hapless mall management.

    As far as I know only two entries have the signs, and there are many entrances to the mall through each of the anchor stores.
    So if I enter through for example Penny's (which I did today) I won't (didn't today) see any signage at all.

    Maybe our OP won't agree with me, and I wouldn't mind exchanging some private messages with him, but I'd rather they
    posted the real thing on all the doors so that there is no confusion than they continue to monkey around stupidly. At least then
    folks like us would know where we stand with certainty and there would be no possibility that mall security or an LEO or both would make an error.

    I'd go with him to mall management.
    shadowwalker likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Anyone stop to think about contacting a LAWYER to ask about this rather than playing internet legal counsel?
    USM1976 and MacGyver like this.
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  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array mr.stuart's Avatar
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    Well,at least this mall will be crime free. Hey they have a sign.
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    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    It isn't illegal. They can post whatever they want. It is invalid as far as making carry by a license holder an act of criminal
    trespass because the signs posted at the mall don't meet the prescribed language, letter size, contrast, conspicuousness, requirements, and are not on each entry-- as of this afternoon.

    The sign is especially screwy due to the fact that the Spanish language portion references the wrong part of the code-- 30.05
    instead of 30.06. [sarcasm] Maybe the mall management meant to let our Spanish speaking neighbors carry? [/sarcasm]

    Our OP has a point, to a point, that it would be best if the police chief were informed the signs aren't legal so no one gets
    arrested when no crime has been committed. OTOH, I have this gnawing thought that if he is informed the error will quickly
    be transmitted to the hapless mall management.

    As far as I know only two entries have the signs, and there are many entrances to the mall through each of the anchor stores.
    So if I enter through for example Penny's (which I did today) I won't (didn't today) see any signage at all.

    Maybe our OP won't agree with me, and I wouldn't mind exchanging some private messages with him, but I'd rather they
    posted the real thing on all the doors so that there is no confusion than they continue to monkey around stupidly. At least then
    folks like us would know where we stand with certainty and there would be no possibility that mall security or an LEO or both would make an error.

    I'd go with him to mall management.
    Got ya.....but informing the mall security may just result in all entrances being posted with proper prescribed signs as in the statue...but that probably will happen anyway once they actually arrest someone and a good sue you lawyer gets involved....thanks for the explanation.
    84160 likes this.
    There are two types of people who carry concealed weapons...Responsible ones and Irresponsible ones...which are you...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 357and40 View Post
    Anyone stop to think about contacting a LAWYER to ask about this rather than playing internet legal counsel?
    This is a topic that is covered well in the concealed carry training course, so no one is playing internet lawyer. It is a TX specific
    issue and licensed Texans know from their instruction what the rules are.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Senior Member Array Inspector71's Avatar
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    I don't understand why someone would get upset about the posting of an illegal sign and go as far as emailing the Chief of Police.
    TVJ, 84160, MacGyver and 1 others like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
    Hop...help me out here...not that it matters to me I will probably never get to Texas, but I posted 30.06 and read it and I am having trouble seeing where the mall sign is illegal..I'm missing something here........
    It fails to meet the legal requirement:

    (3) Written communication means:

    (A) a card or other document on which is written

    language identical to the following:

    Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.

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