Defensive Carry banner

THIS Is The Last Danger To Life AFTER An SD Shooting: The Police:

5K views 68 replies 23 participants last post by  detective 
#1 · (Edited)
PLEASE UNDERSTAND: I AM NOT POSTING THIS VIDEO TO DISCUSS THE INCIDENT DESCRIBED BUT ONLY TO ILLUSTRATE MY POINT:

I've no idea of the Ins and Outs of this, I'm glad the man survived is all whether he was at fault or not. But in an SD Shooting once you've survived at attack you can't let your concentration relax because you have one more potentially lethal encounter to face and you have to be sharp.

Police shoot unarmed man in his driveway - CNN.com Video

For the sake of the illustration, let's assume there was a misinterpretation here even if the guy in reality flew at the cops.

Or Even if the guy innocently made a move, or even did nothing and the police made a complete mistake: the point: the Police obviously did not arrive in order to shoot somebody because they enjoy that. Yet, they did. And with the adrenaline of a shooting in YOU and the adrenaline in the Police because they may face death as they arrive at a shooting YOU were involved in: put the two together and a deadly misunderstanding could easily occur. IT's NOT OVER YET.

I thought we could review accepted steps after a shooting occurs to handle the arrival of police with as much safety as possible.

I'll start and maybe others can add their own:

-Immediately after a shooting if the perp is down and there is a weapon on the ground push it far away from the perp with your foot, then MOVE BACK and CHECK CAREFULLY with gun still at the ready: is he still a threat? I.e.: Has the danger been stopped? I mean to check visually and with some space in front of you. Don't move in to the prone figure all at once and bend over him.


OK, anyone else? What should be next?


(PS: Sorry I had to use a video not directly about the topic but a ballpark illustration of the danger of misinterpretation on all sides - but I don't know where any tape is that shows a real SD incident as the cops arrive)
 
See less See more
#2 ·
...the neighbor who "watched the whole thing" lost sight of him...but told the camera that the man was complying even though I couldn't see him, I'm sure...what an idiot...he's not a credible witness...

...I see the connection to a SD shooting you're struggling to make here...but the man was in his own driveway...standing by his own car...
...the witness I want to see come forward is the one who's supposed to have called the law and reported a burglary...that would provide the officers with some foundation for what happened...time will tell...
 
#9 ·
I dont know... The witness seemed credible to me. His statement provided continuety, and obvious flow of the entire incident. I'd LOVE to have such a witness on my behalf. He'd be discredited if he claimed to be able to see things that would have been impossible from his position.

We've discussed this aspect of a self defense shooting before. Members already commenting have covered it well. When the police arrive SHOW YOUR HANDS!... Drop your gun!, put up your hands!, comply with the police instructions!

As far as the described incident... My opinion is that the police over reacted. Breaking into a car is not a crime that authorize the use of deadly force. I could see one officer mistakenly firing one shot, but 15? Even if the man refused to comply with instructions (described by the sheriff as orders) they still cant shoot someone for it. IMO This is some strait up police state stuff.
 
#4 ·
It seems there are more and more innocents being shot by police. When you make that 911 call be sure the dispatcher relays your description and clothing to the officers enroute. They need to know before they arrive on scene who the good guy is and what he looks like. Do not advance toward the officers, comply with their orders at once. Your hands should be empty and raised. Next?
 
#7 ·
This is crucial PLUS ask 911 to stay on the line - though they likely will already.

Anyone want to address where your gun should be when the police arrive and how you should stand, hands up, kneeling or not etc.? (You want to communicate "I'M SAFE" like a neon message.) Any suggestions on this question? Especially at night when visibility is not the best? Should the cell-phone now be out of your hand etc? (The devil is in the details....)
I'll leave it to others to answer this general question but my overall tip: Assume nothing! The officers may have gotten the 911 transmission describing you but there may have been static, the sirens may have made that message hard to hear - Assume Nothing!
 
#5 ·
...I worked graveyards for a lot of years...made sure I had a light strong enough to SEE what was going on...20,000 CP...it stopped a lot of confusion...and the only hand movements were to cover their eyes...this would be a great time for a dashcam, but they probably didn't pull in behind him...
 
#6 ·
Amen!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 84160
#12 ·
It kinda seems we all sort of assume that we will be standing there cell phone used to call the good guys wondering how to make sure the good guys dont shoot us,,, totally unscathed, checking our surroundings for more threats with a steely eyed gaze:comeandgetsome:

Reality is we may well have won the fight but still be shot, knifed wounded barely standing or not standing at all. Maybe not even able to call LE ourselves. I think keeping that in mind, that shot isnt down and down isnt dead so we dont panic and do something stupid to get ourselves shot by LE could go a long way in living to see the next sunrise also.
Of course if we are totally out of it even though we won the fight its in the hands of the angels I guess.
 
#14 ·
...now that's real!!! the "rules" help us plan...but the whole plan may go out the window...one night I broke some rules that I'd chiseled in stone in my training and "plan"...and because I did I escaped getting shot twice within about a minute...
...we're still better off to consider and role play and train...and come up with some options which have worked for others...
 
#17 ·
What is the opinion about saying/yelling something as the police approach: like "I'm the victim" or someone mentioned yelling "HELP!".
And the last part of this question: "When should you speak?" After being cuffed?

The other alternative is to wait until asked, shouting something out can be jarring and confusing to the Officers approaching. And as far as WHEN you should speak, perhaps silence until they ask you (they will be).

Any thoughts about these two questions?
 
#18 ·
...with empty hands and no upsetting actions, that's the visual...the verbal is impossible to predict...may be quiet conversation or several screaming...if I saw several approaching, I might sit on my ankles and keep my hands in the air...gun holstered and out of sight, making it even more clear that there was no threat...

...if you like your eggs scrambled really well, be holding one at gunpoint with another on the ground...and the one you're holding either had or may have a gun...

...you can scenario yourself into an ulcer...some is good, too much is crazy...

...let's put ourselves in the arriving officer's shoes for a bit...what does he see? are you doing anything that makes him think you pose a danger to him or anyone else? let your actions reassure him, and your words calm the situation if possible...

...not "I've still got my gun!!!" but "Officer, I put my weapon back in it's holster, I know you'll need it...do you want to take it or would you prefer I lay it down on the hood of the car?"

...another thing that might help identify you as non-threatening: have dr. lic. and CHL in your hand when they pull up if you can get them out SAFELY...NOT YOUR WALLET(a dark object)...in all my years, I NEVER had the bad guy offer me his ID...it should help him sort things out a bit...

..."I'm the one that called you and said:..." may help...not the whole 911 conversation, but a point or two that they may have given him....

...don't be bashful about prayin' as the red lights pull up...they are hoomin', you know...and need wisdom, too...
 
#21 ·
Conversing with the LEO's on this board can give one a false sense of security. Ya'll are pros, but some are not. If you're up for a lengthy read, here's where I describe how I survived an encounter with a really spooky one. I'm not suggesting that I did everything right, but everything I did was in an attempt to not have this guy shoot me:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...1-dont-put-your-life-hands-some-stranger.html
 
#23 ·
I'd almost want to tell dispatch, "I'm a cop. I am wearing XXX etc." Cops HATE to shoot cops. When they ask for your ID and get pissy about lying to them, so what? You're alive and can explain why.
 
#26 ·
That could very likely cause you to wind up in a legal jackpot! FWIW, I never knew any cop that I worked with that didn't hate to shoot anybody. Even a justified shooting is a very unpleasant experience IMHO. I realize that there may be a few bad apples out there just like any other profession, but IME they tend to be weeded out fairly quickly. Showing your hands, obeying the officers commands and being professional will go a long ways to having a favorable outcome for you.
 
#24 ·
...worse than they hate shooting cops...they hate them what ain't but are pretending to be...you would just have set their mind fully against you by claiming to be a cop...and that's a lot of shoveling out just to get to level ground...



...now YOU might just slip into the conversation that you used to be...and that could be a plus or a minus, depending on the officer...
 
#30 ·
I have a different reaction about holstering my gun than others have - this has been the common advice. But - as long as the perp is obviously NOT a danger - if I were a LEO pulling up to a shooting not knowing who was who, I'd feel easier if the guy with his hands up was unarmed and told me the gun was on the ground (and visible) a ways behind him (away from the perp).

Is this a mistake?
 
#31 ·
...how about if his best friend appeared? a bystander? a family member?...I'm not a Dr. to check him out...he might be playin' possum...you'd best keep control of the weapon till the officers have arrived and have control of the scene and all bystanders...

...here's a good time to remind you to change to a full mag or reload the revolver...what seems to be "game over" might just be halftime...
 
#32 ·
Aiding a Dying Man?

A second point and one I'm VERY unclear about: the necessity by Law or Humanity of aiding the prone perp (if possible in complete safety). Or, we could say even if it isn't required (I can find nothing about this in my area's Laws on Lethal-Means Self-Defense.) I myself would hate to leave anybody just bleeding out while I awaited the cops - you know, a growing pool of blood on the sidewalk near the prone figure, him groaning, shaking as he nears death - (and something the Coroner could pick-up and I dunno know how that makes you look to investigating police: letting someone, obviously no longer a threat, die in front of your face and doing nothing).

I mean, you can always stop the aid and do the hands-up etc. to avoid danger by being on top of the guy when the police arrive.

So, not only from a Legal aspect but also from the humanitarian point of view, as well as the image that not-helping could give to authorities: what are your thoughts about this?

Maybe some LEOs or former-LEOs could also help with this question: would you look down on a person who claims SD if they knowingly let the prone man die? ("prone man", not the "perp" to them and you're not the "Innocent SD" to them either. Not now; they don't know these things)
 
#34 ·
Give your Description to dispatch. Tell them someone has been shot. SECURE THE WEAPON. When the police arrive point out evidence. Stay on the phone with dispatch until the officers arrive. Do what they tell you to do. Most important, BREATH.....It helps control the affects of the adrenaline dump..

They are not there to be your friend they are there to investigate a Shooting. After you point out the few details they need shut your mouth. Consult an attorney..

As for rendering aid. I will not. I am not a doctor, nor a paramedic and do not inspire to become either....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Secret Spuk
#35 ·
Wife and I had to go through first aid training a few years ago. One thing they said stuck in my mind. "You are not required or responsible to provide first aid in a given situation." How much more does that apply if you feel it is unsafe?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Snub44
#39 ·
...230 well-placed grains will not convert him into being my friend, after he caused me to shoot him...neither will his reaction to it...

...like the TV ad says: "You asked for it, you GOT it...Toyota" ...all my conscious effort will be expended to remain safe until the authorities and the ambulance arrive...and I don't KNOW what else may happen at any second...I'm in defense mode...
 
#40 ·
#41 ·
I asked this same question in my CCDW class and pretty much got no answer. To me this was a big thing. Standing over a body with a gun in my hand doesn't seem to be the ideal situation to be in when the LEO's get there. I realize that there are lots of variables but it seems like there should be some good guidelines. LEO's help out. What would be ideal for you? Put the gun down when we see you arrive and put our foot on it? hands up? CCL in my hand?
I'm guessing that if I'm on the phone, the dispatcher will be letting the Officers know what to expect and will instruct me accordingly, but if someone else calls and I'm covering the BG... I'd like to not get shot. Enquiring minds want to know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: detective
#43 ·
Telling the 911 dispatcher "the victim is the overweight white guy with gray hair, jeans, and a green shirt" (or whatever your current description is) would hopefully be passed on to the responding officer so he knows what to expect.

Between being partly deaf to start with, and what me ears will be doing after firing a pistol with no protection, any communication with 911 or the police is going to be one-way for an hour or two.
 
#44 ·
...don't waste any time telling the officers "I told them" this or that...dispatchers are renowned for not passing on pertinent information that you gave them and repeated twice...I've had officers show me their screen and what they were sent bore slim resemblance to what the 911 tape recorded...but the officers aren't sent the 911 tape...
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top