When "Telling" Actually Works

When "Telling" Actually Works

This is a discussion on When "Telling" Actually Works within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There's a thread buried deep in this forum where I shared that I went to a restaurant and found a "no gun" sign posted in ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    When "Telling" Actually Works

    There's a thread buried deep in this forum where I shared that I went to a restaurant and found a "no gun" sign posted in the bar, but not the restaurant itself. In AZ, that means that the entire restaurant is still a "no gun" zone, and the laws are written specifically to allow a person to walk into a bar while CCing to look for the sign (it has to be posted next to the liquor license, but does not have to be posted anywhere else in the restaurant.

    So the other day I was in Sedona with my wife and Mother-in-Law and we went to a restaurant. I looked around and saw no signs. A few minutes later, coming out of the bathroom I saw a no-gun sign (bathroom was inside the bar area). I asked for the manager and the waitress led me over to him. I sat down and told him that I just now saw the sign, and did he want me to either (1) go get my family and leave, or (2) go ahead and eat. He asked if I had my CCL and I told him I did. His response was not to worry about it. He said that they have to put up the sign in the bar, but that he's not worried about people CCing in the restaurant.

    That is the second time I've had the same response, which is that it is basically mandatory for them to have a sign in the bar. Yet, nowhere in the Arizona law code can I find anything that states this. It wasn't taught that way in my class, and furthermore, both places seemed to be under the impression that it really only applied to the bar area when in reality, it applies to the entire restaurant.

    Has anyone else in AZ ran into the same problem?
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    Much like laws, No-Gun signs are only effective when enforced.
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    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Not in AZ, but upon seeing your signature I feel obligated to say GO STEELERS!

    To stay on topic, I've never had an experience like this.
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    Interesting approach to an irritating problem. Well-played. Unfortunately, it won't work in Ohio as one is subject to arrest for criminal trespassing regardless of the location of the signage.
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    Cool

    While my answer isn't what the OP is asking for based on his interaction with the restaurant manager I would say if he and his family are otherwise satisfied with the service and the food if it was me I'd seriously consider making it a regular thing for me.

    As many here do I prefer to support local mom and pop places that provide a good service and good product. Especially folks that abide by the Law and the Right of the people, such as we 2A folks. Them that are friendly to me and support or otherwise at least tolerate my beliefs I prefer to deal with rather than those that would suck up to Obummer and the riff raff that run with him. JMHO YMMV

    We all know how many of the chain businesses are more concerned with CYA (theirs not yours).
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    The laws everywhere are all over the place . For a newbie like me i do alot of searching and asking questions here . You did play the situation well i would be looking for the sign at the door and not at the bar .
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    If I was in the middle of dinner I would just act like I hadn't seen the sign and kept on eatin'. Leave it up to the management to discover I'm carrying.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemsaal View Post
    He said that they have to put up the sign in the bar, but that he's not worried about people CCing in the restaurant.

    That is the second time I've had the same response, which is that it is basically mandatory for them to have a sign in the bar. Yet, nowhere in the Arizona law code can I find anything that states this.
    A bit of rooting around found the following ...


    AZ Dept of Liquor Licenses & Control

    See: State Of Arizona Department Of Liquor License And Control's Title IV Lawbook (2011).



    According to ARS §4-229, which went into effect in 2009:

    A.R.S. §4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice

    A. A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:

    1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
    2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm with in a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
    3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".


    B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.

    C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:

    1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the
      violation.
    2. Any one or more of the following apply:

      (a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.

      (b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.

      (c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.


    D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.

    E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters comprising the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch.

    NOTHING SHALL PROHIBIT A LICENSEE FROM POSTING ADDITIONAL SIGNS AT ONE OR MORE LOCATIONS ON THE PREMISES.

    F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:

    1. Seeking emergency aid.
    2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.


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    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    A bit of rooting around found the following ...


    AZ Dept of Liquor Licenses & Control

    See: State Of Arizona Department Of Liquor License And Control's Title IV Lawbook (2011).



    According to ARS §4-229, which went into effect in 2009:

    A.R.S. §4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice

    A. A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to the following requirements:

    1. Be posted in a conspicuous location accessible to the general public and immediately adjacent to the liquor license posted on the licensed premises.
    2. Contain a pictogram that shows a firearm with in a red circle and a diagonal red line across the firearm.
    3. Contain the words, "no firearms allowed pursuant to A.R.S. section 4-229".


    B. A person shall not carry a firearm on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer if the licensee has posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section.

    C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if:

    1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the
      violation.
    2. Any one or more of the following apply:

      (a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down.

      (b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state.

      (c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation.


    D. The department of liquor licenses and control shall prepare the signs required by this section and make them available at no cost to licensees.

    E. The signs required by this section shall be composed of block, capital letters printed in black on white laminated paper at a minimum weight of one hundred ten pound index. The lettering and pictogram shall consume a space at least six inches by nine inches. The letters comprising the words "no firearms allowed" shall be at least three-fourths of a vertical inch and all other letters shall be at least one-half of a vertical inch.

    NOTHING SHALL PROHIBIT A LICENSEE FROM POSTING ADDITIONAL SIGNS AT ONE OR MORE LOCATIONS ON THE PREMISES.

    F. This section does not prohibit a person who possesses a handgun from entering the licensed premises for a limited time for the specific purpose of either:

    1. Seeking emergency aid.
    2. Determining whether a sign has been posted pursuant to subsection A of this section.


    Yep, that's the section I was referring to. It's that last section about being able to determine whether the sign is posted that bungs the rest of the laws up, because while it gives me the right to go into the restaurant to look for the sign at the bar, it also seems to carry within it the idea that a person that is carrying is responsible for looking for the sign.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    Not in AZ, but upon seeing your signature I feel obligated to say GO STEELERS!

    To stay on topic, I've never had an experience like this.
    I like the obligation, and your pic of the chief (among other personalities). Next time I head to Pittsburgh for a game, I'm definitely bringing my EDC with me. I'll just make sure that the hotel I'm staying in has an in-room safe with a combination that I get to choose.
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    thump clap, thump clap, thump clap,
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    Here we go!

  11. #11
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    I think it would be a lot simpler if they just required posting the sign by the entry door, instead of requiring you to go inside and search for their liquor license.

  12. #12
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    I have run into this in the Phoenix area, and it's annoying to get well into the restaurant and then find out it's a criminal enterprise zone. Fortunately, my favorite places aren't posted.
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  13. #13
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Well, if the "don't ask - don't tell" approach makes you uncomfortable then, by all means, ask whomever you want for official clarification. I, personally, won't invest too much into the legal interpretation of CC laws by a restaurant manager. If the sign is posted so obscurely that I have to continuously scan the entire premises then it's not "conspicuously posted". If he can hide the sign, then I can hide... my handgun.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Jemsaal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    Well, if the "don't ask - don't tell" approach makes you uncomfortable then, by all means, ask whomever you want for official clarification. I, personally, won't invest too much into the legal interpretation of CC laws by a restaurant manager. If the sign is posted so obscurely that I have to continuously scan the entire premises then it's not "conspicuously posted". If he can hide the sign, then I can hide... my handgun.
    That doesn't work in AZ, however. If anyone sees you and call the police, you can be arrested and lose your CCL since signs have the force of law here, and the only place that restaurants are required to post is the liquor license.

    The restaurant manager's legal interpretation is suspect at best, and it's frustrating. However, when they give permission, that's not legal advice, that's overriding the sign that makes it illegal.
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    Here we go!
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    Pittsburgh is going the Superbowl!
    Here we go!

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    Confusing law that loses effect in application is bad law. You ought to get with a state-wide gun rights group and with an associate lawyer start an initiative to make the law work better for the intentions of the tax-paying business owners and their customers.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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