Question about training.

Question about training.

This is a discussion on Question about training. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hello, very new to defensive carry, and pretty very new to gun ownership as well. I need a little advise here, because I pretty much ...

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Thread: Question about training.

  1. #1
    New Member Array DPS3713's Avatar
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    Question about training.

    Hello, very new to defensive carry, and pretty very new to gun ownership as well. I need a little advise here, because I pretty much know nothing on the topic. I've been looking for a entry level handgun training school to attend, however a co worker is claiming to be firearms training instructor out at a place called front sight. I was looking at a few schools run by ex military. The few I looked at were, Viking Tactics, Alias Training and Haley Strategic. I figure, if I am going to learn how to defend myself why not learn from guys who have actually been in real gunfights. My co worker sat down and watched some youtube videos of the 3 schools I was looking at, and told me not to waste my money. Basically that everything they were doing and teaching was wrong. One of the main things he said was that their grip and stance is wrong. Said that thumbs forward grip and isosceles (which is what I have been practicing) was wrong and that he would show me Weaver. I asked him to show me both and let me decide for myself, and he said it is a waste of time because it was the wrong way to shoot period. He found out I carried IWB appendix and claimed it was too easy to shoot myself that way and that it was the number one way next to cleaning that people have shot themselves. My gut reaction, is to run away. However he claims to be a expert certified instructor. What do you guys think?
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  2. #2
    Member Array FLMOPE's Avatar
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    I think you are being mislead. Seek out good training. Take the training and then decid.e for yourself.

    BTW the grip and stance you are using is used by virtually every good competition shooter out there.
    Secret Spuk likes this.
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    VIP Member Array 1MoreGoodGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPS3713 View Post
    Hello, very new to defensive carry, and pretty very new to gun ownership as well. I need a little advise here, because I pretty much know nothing on the topic. I've been looking for a entry level handgun training school to attend, however a co worker is claiming to be firearms training instructor out at a place called front sight. I was looking at a few schools run by ex military. The few I looked at were, Viking Tactics, Alias Training and Haley Strategic. I figure, if I am going to learn how to defend myself why not learn from guys who have actually been in real gunfights. My co worker sat down and watched some youtube videos of the 3 schools I was looking at, and told me not to waste my money. Basically that everything they were doing and teaching was wrong. One of the main things he said was that their grip and stance is wrong. Said that thumbs forward grip and isosceles (which is what I have been practicing) was wrong and that he would show me Weaver. I asked him to show me both and let me decide for myself, and he said it is a waste of time because it was the wrong way to shoot period. He found out I carried IWB appendix and claimed it was too easy to shoot myself that way and that it was the number one way next to cleaning that people have shot themselves. My gut reaction, is to run away. However he claims to be a expert certified instructor. What do you guys think?
    Do you have a more specific question you'd like to ask?
    ginzo likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPS3713 View Post
    Hello, very new to defensive carry, and pretty very new to gun ownership as well. I need a little advise here, because I pretty much know nothing on the topic. I've been looking for a entry level handgun training school to attend, however a co worker is claiming to be firearms training instructor out at a place called front sight. I was looking at a few schools run by ex military. The few I looked at were, Viking Tactics, Alias Training and Haley Strategic. I figure, if I am going to learn how to defend myself why not learn from guys who have actually been in real gunfights. My co worker sat down and watched some youtube videos of the 3 schools I was looking at, and told me not to waste my money. Basically that everything they were doing and teaching was wrong. One of the main things he said was that their grip and stance is wrong. Said that thumbs forward grip and isosceles (which is what I have been practicing) was wrong and that he would show me Weaver. I asked him to show me both and let me decide for myself, and he said it is a waste of time because it was the wrong way to shoot period. He found out I carried IWB appendix and claimed it was too easy to shoot myself that way and that it was the number one way next to cleaning that people have shot themselves. My gut reaction, is to run away. However he claims to be a expert certified instructor. What do you guys think?
    Anybody who claims everyone else is wrong has nothing to teach me.
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  5. #5
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    The weaver is 10-15 years out of date as the modern isoceles has become accepted by the tactical crowd after the competition crowd proved its value for years.

    There are various iterations of the actual grip positions, but anyone claiming weaver is "the" way to go is not an "expert" I care to learn from.

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    New Member Array DPS3713's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Do you have a more specific question you'd like to ask?
    Yeah, can you recommend some good training schools to attend?

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    I can't recommend any quality schools in your area but I do want to say this.. anybody who claims everybody else but them is wrong is extremely arrogant and closed minded. I wouldn't spend one cent or minute with them.

    Also, just because somebody is certified doesn't necessarily mean they are competent or an expert either.
    Secret Spuk likes this.
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    I agree: Avoid that self elected "expert" completely. It sounds to me like he could really mess you up and it could take a very long time to unlearn the useless, outdated and potentially dangerous things he would "learn ya......"

    There are a number of very good schools. The tuition varies a lot and some of the better ones don't charge the highest amount of money. It would help if you would indicate the area of the country in which you live and how many days you can be gone to a school, including travel time.

    There are a lot of NRA courses around the county and the teaching there is consistent (or supposed to be). You won't get comprehensive defensive shooting skills training there but it might be a good place to start.

    If you have unlimited funds and time off in which to travel, distance is no problem and you don't need to specify an area in which you live. Note: No one wants or needs to know what city you live in. Some of us choose to share that information and some don't. But a destination like "northwest US" or some such thing would help people in suggesting schools for you to consider.

    ========

    One idea - just something to look at. We went to several different classes at the original Chapman Academy. The teaching there was totally fantastic. John Skaggs had taken over the running of the school but Ray Chapman was still THE BOSS. Not too long after Ray Chapman died it closed. Now I read on line that it is open again with two instructors - but not the main ones who were there when we went. The classes are much shorter than when we went and therefore don't cover as much "subject matter". I can't either recommend or not recommend it other than to say when we went and the original lead instructors were there "those were the best days of my life"........in shooting terms anyway.
    Getting old was not on my list of "things to do" in the Golden Years!

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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    Im a Tactical Response Alum. I recommend them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DPS3713 View Post
    Yeah, can you recommend some good training schools to attend?
    http://tdiohio.com/home_page/ complete with thumbs-forward grip, isosceles stance, and one-handed draw from concealment.
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
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  11. #11
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPS3713 View Post
    Hello, very new to defensive carry, and pretty very new to gun ownership as well. I need a little advise here, because I pretty much know nothing on the topic. I've been looking for a entry level handgun training school to attend, however a co worker is claiming to be firearms training instructor out at a place called front sight. I was looking at a few schools run by ex military. The few I looked at were, Viking Tactics, Alias Training and Haley Strategic. I figure, if I am going to learn how to defend myself why not learn from guys who have actually been in real gunfights. My co worker sat down and watched some youtube videos of the 3 schools I was looking at, and told me not to waste my money. Basically that everything they were doing and teaching was wrong. One of the main things he said was that their grip and stance is wrong. Said that thumbs forward grip and isosceles (which is what I have been practicing) was wrong and that he would show me Weaver. I asked him to show me both and let me decide for myself, and he said it is a waste of time because it was the wrong way to shoot period. He found out I carried IWB appendix and claimed it was too easy to shoot myself that way and that it was the number one way next to cleaning that people have shot themselves. My gut reaction, is to run away. However he claims to be a expert certified instructor. What do you guys think?
    I think you co-worker has a lot of opinions. That's not the same as knowledge.

    The Weaver is not the 11th Commandment. A lot of this stuff, the "right" stance, " correct" hand-grip etc. is matter of practicality: what works naturally for you? Use that - (just don't use "Thumbs-Forward" in a revolver, especially something like a .357 Magnum, or bye-bye right thumb). As for Appendix Carry - others can give their view but I never heard it was objectively dangerous.

    Good luck getting used to shooting !

  12. #12
    New Member Array DPS3713's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, I live in Missouri and don't mind dropping some cash on good entry level training.

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    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Welcome to the wide, wild world of concealed carry and all things related.

    I would ask you first,
    "what is your goal?" In other words, are you looking for training in competent gun handling and fine tuning your accurate fire? Maybe, building a base, to see what you need to improve on?
    or, are you seeking a 'fighting' school?
    While some schools/instructors can teach both, or some degree of either, they tend to differentiate one from the other. Read their descriptions of the classes offered, and choose that which serves you the best. Search this and other forums for AARs or After Action Reports and see if they offer some insight as to which school or instructor fits your needs.

    dan

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Zralou's Avatar
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    Find an IDPA match in your area and go watch (or even participate). While it won't train you for anything, it will give you opportunity to shoot in a different atmosphere to bowling alley target shooting.
    Or even better, don't know about your area, but here some ranges have an 'introduction to IDPA', which when I took the course was very helpful in draw techniques, reloads, shooting on the move, strong hand, weak hand, etc.

    Sara Lou
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    Member Array RTF_Squared's Avatar
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    Take anything you hear from this "expert" with a grain of salt. Front Sight is a pretty clownshoes operation if you ask me. The owner is one of the worst telemarketers on the face of the planet. I would get calls no less than once a week offering to sell me into the next huge deal on their "Diamond-Platinum-Pro-Pimpin" membership package from their autodialer. My first CCW class was a classroom only joke and both the "instructors" were Front Sight fanboys. I learned nothing useful related to weapons handling or shooting whatsoever. The legal and medical portions were pretty weak. One of these two instruticlowns refused to carry with a round in the chamber. The other was explaining how Weaver was the only stance to go with, explaining "this is also my fistfighting stance" and followed it up with a little simulated punch and kick. I laughed quite audibly and almost walked out at that point, but I needed my little piece of paper that certified I could carry a gun concealed.

    I think this was effective mindset training because watching somebody fill a room full of 40 people with misinformative garbage without telling the instructors to shove it took a lot of patience and adherence to conflict non-escalation.

    Moral of the story, do your own homework with who you train with. My first class was $150 wasted aside from a sheet of paper that says I'm qualified to carry concealed. It sucked, and was forking out for more/better training before very long. All three of the schools you have listed are held in high regards among most of the shooting community. I'm looking at taking the darkness/handgun/vehicle with Haley Strategic before too much longer. You may research other local options that don't require any travel and cost less, with the big names you're looking at you're looking at a big price tag due to the instructor's high level of credentials.
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.

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