NYPD: Hit Civilians in Shooting- Lesson About Firing In Crowded Areas? :

NYPD: Hit Civilians in Shooting- Lesson About Firing In Crowded Areas? :

This is a discussion on NYPD: Hit Civilians in Shooting- Lesson About Firing In Crowded Areas? : within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Times Square is an exciting place, but thankfully in all the years I spent in NYC (and will spend more) I never saw it THIS ...

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  1. #1
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    NYPD: Hit Civilians in Shooting- Lesson About Firing In Crowded Areas? :

    Times Square is an exciting place, but thankfully in all the years I spent in NYC (and will spend more) I never saw it THIS exciting.

    Police fire on man acting like he pulled a gun, they fired, 2 or 3 shoots - missed the target but hit two bystanders, luckily non-lethally.
    Second time this happened, Cops threatened by actual gun - a 45 - about two years ago: shot the Perp but also crowd-members - none lethally and some with ricochet bullet fragments . Since it was shoot or die I thought the cops had done what they had to do, both to stay alive themselves and also save many others from a guy walking along the street, now with a visible 45acp in hand, popping people left and right - and aiming to kill. He had already, just before the police incident, shot someone in the head and was in the process of fleeing.

    If the same here with belief cops were about to be shot, believing in this guy's ruse to make them think so, what are they supposed to do? (Note: This is prior to Investigation)

    So, as you watch this, you can either ascribe it to lousy training or say that most LEOs would do the same (shoot) and as often possibly hit bystanders. I think NYPD's training is SOP for Depts nationwide. If so, put your self in this place as a civilian being threatened with a gun but near many people, reasonable chance you'll hit a bystander and, (if lucky), stop the BG as well, but your life is on the line:

    WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WHAT SHOULD WE DO? (Hell of a question, but since it could happen, might as well think about it now than Then).

    Cops wound bystanders near Times Square - CNN.com Video
    (There's an ad first)

    (Also, keep in mind, NYPD are much more often in crowded areas than is so in other locales - so we see this type of incident more often in New York City for that reason, it happens more there - and not necessarily because New York Police are poor shooters.)


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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    IF I was being threatened with a gun all bets are off because at that point you have no choice but shoot and do your best not to hit bystanders.

    Of course it looks a lot better afterwards if you actually hit the person you were shooting at least once as well as multiple innocent bystanders.

    Also helps your case if you claim you were threatened with a gun the person you tried to shoot actually had anything resembling one.

    You or I do this same thing and we go to jail for a number of charges the least of which would be wanton endangerment or reckless something or other.

    NYPD does it its SOP for the NYCPD.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    IF I was being threatened with a gun all bets are off because at that point you have no choice but shoot and do your best not to hit bystanders.

    Of course it looks a lot better afterwards if you actually hit the person you were shooting at least once as well as multiple innocent bystanders.

    Also helps your case if you claim you were threatened with a gun the person you tried to shoot actually had anything resembling one.

    You or I do this same thing and we go to jail for a number of charges the least of which would be wanton endangerment or reckless something or other.

    NYPD does it its SOP for the NYCPD.
    Yeah, could be one real big difference, cops who shoot to save their life seem to pass the SOP procedure even if a civilian gets hit for they may well be hitting the BG also, preventing some shooting by the BG of others, with the intention and technique for a deadly hit..

    Civilians are responsible for all their fired bullets, so if they hit someone besides the BG it's real bad. On the other hand, I wonder if the DA can just ignore the civilian's cost of not defending himself: his life, if that's the case. Maybe some DAs wouldn't Charge. Negligence would be hard to prove since many similar incidents involving Police (and not in just New York City) show trained officers having to shoot in crowded conditions or they will be killed, with nearby civilians at times being hit. If this was used as the standard with professionals it may seem demanding more from a CCW is not appropriate legally. The usual non-negligent way to handle this would be refrain from firing while others were around, but if you're choice is shoot now or die - you wouldn't be in a position to wait for people to clear.

    I've never heard of such a case like this involving a civilian so I take comfort from the rarity because I sure wouldn't know what to do with about a 1/4 a second to feel it out. No thanks. It would probably end up being some impulse of the moment.

    One other thing though: though we're not sworn to protect like Police, we can shoot to save another life. So, say in a restaurant, someone hits the cashier for the money, shoots him, shoots another patron and by now you have your gun out as he raises his to point at you, you will be #3. If people are screaming and behind him trying to get out and to prevent hitting one of them you let the BG shoot you, you - somewhat like a cop - are also taking out the one person who could stop his seeming plan to shoot as many as he can: that one person is yourself.

    Be a VERY complicated legal affair each step of the way if such a thing came out. I bet some court somewhere that was involved, perhaps the Appellate court if you were initially convicted for negligence for wounded bystanders, would ultimately decide the State cannot force a citizen to take no action to save himself and therefore force himself to die.
    Last edited by detective; September 16th, 2013 at 05:30 AM.
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  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Yeah, could be one real big difference, cops who shoot to save their life seem to pass the SOP procedure even if a civilian gets hit for they may well in hitting the BG also, prevent some more shooting by the BG of others.

    Civilians are responsible for all their fired bullets, so if they hit tsomeone real bad. On the other hand, I wonder if the DA can just ignore the civilian's cost of not oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooojiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiliiiiijiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiijjiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiioooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooo;;;;;;;;;oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooo;;;;;;lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllllllllllllll viooooooooooooiiiiii

    Im not sure if you passed out and your head is resting on the key board there??

    1 In this instance the NYPD were not being threatened with a gun. Even if they had been they didnt hit the BG only innocent bystanders.
    2. I would be interested to know exactly what the difference is if the BG is shot by a person wearing a badge and thus stopped from shooting others, or if the BG is shot and stopped from shooting others by a armed citizen?? Except perhaps the armed citizen is likely better shot and would actually hit the BG as opposed to missing him entirely???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Im not sure if you passed out and your head is resting on the key board there??

    1 In this instance the NYPD were not being threatened with a gun. Even if they had been they didnt hit the BG only innocent bystanders.
    2. I would be interested to know exactly what the difference is if the BG is shot by a person wearing a badge and thus stopped from shooting others, or if the BG is shot and stopped from shooting others by a armed citizen?? Except perhaps the armed citizen is likely better shot and would actually hit the BG as opposed to missing him entirely???
    (No, sorry, I just finished what I was writing in the original post my comments were in. I had gotten a phone call just I as was originally writing it, left the computer and my cats had a stroll across the keyboard several times. So that's their opinion: the lines of letters and dashes)

    As far as your response, yeah, that what I just brought up when I corrected the partial-post you quoted. It's a post or two above this one if you would like to read the non-cat version. I make the same point you mention. Cops and CCWs may be looked at more the same than different. And as I point out, if it's common for police about to be shot (or reasonably believe they are) and they are allowed to shoot even if the were to hit someone in a crowd to save their life, hard to justify higher standards for a citizen with a legal weapon in the same situation. That may work legally in the CCW's favor.

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    I cant make any excuses for the department in a case like this. There is no excuse for shooting innocent people. NONE! Anyone who's ever been to times square can attest to the density of the people, the buildings, and the cars. Any miss is going to hit something. Not only Times Square is like this. All of NY with a few exceptions in the outer boro's is like this. Again I believe this go's to a lack of training and discipline on behalf of the officers and the department. NY is full of crazy people. Crazy people do crazy things, including pointing their fingers like a gun in the middle of the street. As I've posted before the firearm is very rarely the soloution to a police problem. When it is that rare soloution it must be operated to perfection. This incident in my opinion was neither.

    I cant speak on any other location when it comes to weather a civilian would be charged. The idea that there is some blue line of silence or something that would protect this officer is a figment of the media's imagination. The bluse line is the government of the city. All NY officers enjoy a very high level of indemnification. The City underwrites itself. The clearing of officers making mistakes is more the city protecting itself than officers covering for anothers incompetence. In addition NYS CPLR, and Penal law allows for a degree of recklessnes depending on the level of danger, or threat to the officer or society at large. However the officer is not allowed to become a greater threat than the origonal threat. This is the only difference between an officer and a non sworn civilian when using deadly force.
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    Of course I wasn't there and know only scant details from the video, any comment I make would only be vague speculation. My thoughts can easily range from whether the officer chose to fire a bit too quickly, or maybe he may have been very justified in what he did.

    Without a doubt being in a crowd like that, someone is likely to catch a bullet/fragments.

    I would tend to agree with the cats opinion about this, though their inappropriate demand for a daily mouse should have been posted over in the off-topic section.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    IF I was being threatened with a gun all bets are off because at that point you have no choice but shoot and do your best not to hit bystanders.
    No.

    You're being paid "to serve and to protect." Shooting one of your employers because you're in a bad spot isn't an option.

    Once you start shooting bystanders you're a criminal, badge or not.
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    Senior Member Array SCfromNY's Avatar
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    I can look at this either way. The police are paid to be professionals and should be able to assess the situation quicker and react with a skillful confrontation. Or in the heat of the moment all bets are off and mandated to stop a situation you react as quickly and skillful as you can and it is not TV you may miss and hit an innocent bystander.

    I do have a couple of issues. 1. While the result may have been the same more training on the range and simulations should be mandated for any force expected to keep order. Too many police view the handgun as part of their uniform with magic properties that you can just wave and all will be well. 2. TV shows have attempted to give us the impression that LE is above the normal citizenry and no normal person could possibly have the skill, resolve, and strength of character to defend themselves and others.

    Many police departments are terribly underpaid for the responsibility and risk they are expected to endure. Personal mandated training time is needed to make your abilities like the skin you wear not the shirt you occasionally put on.
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    Not acceptable. a. He missed, b. He kept shooting after the miss, continuing to miss, c. An actual weapon wasn't brandished, pretending isn't imminent danger. Public safety didn't appear to be his focus. Looks like a case of more training was needed, which I have a feeling isn't uncommon.
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    And you wonder why NYC is mostly anti-gun when their cops routinely do stuff like this. But, can you blame the cops really? They get stuck with crappy triggers on their weapons and probably not nearly enough range time. :)

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    Question: Dose the NYPD still use the Glock 17 or 19 with added 8# trigger for safety reasons, if so that may have an effect on marksmanship?
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    These stories always make me think more about New York triggers than New York cops or New York crowds.
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    Reminds me I need to talk to my family and tell them if they EVER find themselves in the area of a shootout (cops or not) to HIT THE GROUND and crawl to cover! Even if your armed it might not be a good idea to do anything else (hit ground, seek cover) because you don't always know who's the good guys and who's the bad guys - also - even if YOU knew who the bad guys where - the good guys might mistake you for a bad guy.
    Something to keep in mind.

    You may have seen security cam videos showing a shooting in progress and bystanders just standing or walking confused and slow staying in harms way when they should have dropped down on the ground.
    Last edited by ArmyCop; September 16th, 2013 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Adding content
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    VIP Member Array GhostMaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    (No, sorry, I just finished what I was writing in the original post my comments were in. I had gotten a phone call just I as was originally writing it, left the computer and my cats had a stroll across the keyboard several times. So that's their opinion: the lines of letters and dashes)
    Bahahahahahahahah! Even cats can't stand Bloomberg's New York, but at least they bury what they "shovel out". (Sorry, just had to say it...no offense)
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