Bringin' a knife to a gunfight

This is a discussion on Bringin' a knife to a gunfight within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Was in the truck yesterday with my wife and 17 year old son. We were retuning home from a local gun show and were discussing ...

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Thread: Bringin' a knife to a gunfight

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    Member Array BradL's Avatar
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    Bringin' a knife to a gunfight

    Was in the truck yesterday with my wife and 17 year old son. We were retuning home from a local gun show and were discussing some of the knives we saw that my son said he wanted. My wife made a comment about bringing a knife to a gun fight and my son said that he could get to me with a knife at 20 feet before I was able to draw and fire. I told him that it wasn't possible, that I'd drop an attacker before he got to me with the knife.

    This prompted a question from my wife about whether it's better to just fire at the attacker or try to threaten with loud words and point your gun at him/her, then if they don't stop, then fire. I said it's best to stop the attack immediatly. This brought up further questions from my son about shooting to kill or just shooting to mame. (Aim for a leg or something).

    I've always heard that you're better off in a defensive shooting situation to aim for center mass and make sure that the BG doesn't get back up. Also not to hesitate to pull the trigger and not try to threaten with words to stop an attack. My question, (after finally getting to it) is why it is the case, or is it?
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    VIP Member Array StormRhydr's Avatar
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    OK...get this seared into your memory; We shoot to stop the threat. NOT TO KILL.

    If the bad guy happens too die, because of the wounds inflicted trying to stop his attack/render him no longer a threat, well thats just how it goes. You NEVER MEANT for that to happen, according to the law in many places.

    Its all nonsense, in a certain sense, but its very real for you should you be in a situation that LE will examine with a microscope.

    At crunch time I dont think we will have the luxury of shooting for an arm or a leg over a center mass shot. Even if you did, if you didnt consider the person a serious threat of death or serious bodily injury, you have no business shooting. And since we have already established that you DID need to fire, you dont mess around with taking shots not designed to stop the threat.

    See some videos of people who have taken an unreal amount of SERIOUS hits who still keep shooting, and that will put the issue at rest for you.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradL View Post
    Was in the truck yesterday with my wife and 17 year old son. We were retuning home from a local gun show and were discussing some of the knives we saw that my son said he wanted. My wife made a comment about bringing a knife to a gun fight and my son said that he could get to me with a knife at 20 feet before I was able to draw and fire. I told him that it wasn't possible, that I'd drop an attacker before he got to me with the knife.

    This prompted a question from my wife about whether it's better to just fire at the attacker or try to threaten with loud words and point your gun at him/her, then if they don't stop, then fire. I said it's best to stop the attack immediatly. This brought up further questions from my son about shooting to kill or just shooting to mame. (Aim for a leg or something).

    I've always heard that you're better off in a defensive shooting situation to aim for center mass and make sure that the BG doesn't get back up. Also not to hesitate to pull the trigger and not try to threaten with words to stop an attack. My question, (after finally getting to it) is why it is the case, or is it?
    I would put money on your son getting to you.....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    VIP Member Array tdave's Avatar
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    The Tueller Rule is in effect. 21' the guy can reach you with a knife. Other factors...
    1) If he knows what he is doing your not going to see the knife that far out if at all.
    2) Movement on your part can give you more time. Make it lateral he'll move faster forward than you will backwards.
    3) With or without movement time will be short. Shoot the big target till it drops or you two can go to a hot place hand in hand.

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    Member Array DonPablo_VA's Avatar
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    A knife is deadly at close distances. If you had little warning and were carrying concealed a determined knife attacker would be on you before you could draw or fully complete your draw a majority of the time. You can always train it and see for yourself. Get a blue gun or 'rope your gun**' to make it safe. Have your training partner get a training knife, blunt dowel etc. Mark off some distances from you and have your training partner initiate a knife attack at his discretion with you carrying as you normally would. It's a really, really tough position to be in if you see a knife coming at you close up. It takes a lot of training and practice for you to judge if you can get your weapon out and get a shot in before getting cut. Getting off line is critical as is practicing shooting from a high retention position.

    **Roping your gun is a Tactical Defense Institute (TDI) method of ensuring a cleared weapon. They use colored wire but you can use fishing line, rope etc that is fed from the muzzle into the chamber and out the bottom of the magazine with both ends visible. You and your training partner and instantly verify the weapon is clear and cannot contain a live round or magazine **

    Respectfully, DP
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    Your son will close the 20ft gap before you can fire- unless you are some sort of freaky quick draw McGraw, I'll bet my next paycheck on it.
    Also, aiming center mass has a lot less to do with lethality than it does shooting at the biggest and most stationary target a moving human provides. Have you ever tried to hit a moving arm or leg? Under stress, it's damn near impossible.
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    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    I would put money on your son getting to you.....
    As would I.

    Check out the "Tueller drill" if you don't already know about it, OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradL View Post
    Was in the truck yesterday with my wife and 17 year old son. We were retuning home from a local gun show and were discussing some of the knives we saw that my son said he wanted. My wife made a comment about bringing a knife to a gun fight and my son said that he could get to me with a knife at 20 feet before I was able to draw and fire. I told him that it wasn't possible, that I'd drop an attacker before he got to me with the knife.

    This prompted a question from my wife about whether it's better to just fire at the attacker or try to threaten with loud words and point your gun at him/her, then if they don't stop, then fire. I said it's best to stop the attack immediatly. This brought up further questions from my son about shooting to kill or just shooting to mame. (Aim for a leg or something).

    I've always heard that you're better off in a defensive shooting situation to aim for center mass and make sure that the BG doesn't get back up. Also not to hesitate to pull the trigger and not try to threaten with words to stop an attack. My question, (after finally getting to it) is why it is the case, or is it?
    We demonstrate in the h2h/defensive edged weapons courses that you'd lose to your son. 21 feet can be closed in 1.5 seconds by a perp. If you draw and fire in that time on threat, you're being stabbed while shooting him. Not a winning situation by any means for either of you. The idea is to not take damage while damaging the other person to stop their aggression.

    We can prove that the old saying of "the idiot brought a knife to a gun fight" is flawed in fof and training environs. I have a .88-.93 draw stroke to first shot concealed and a .43-.48 to first shot open carried. The concealed time I have to first shot would put the perp within striking range with the knife, and that's if I know it's on at that range and the reaction time is staged in preparation for same, which it won't be on the street for the most part.

    The reality is you're bringing a gun to a knife fight most of the time a knife is in play. Better have some defensive h2h skills to create time and distance initially and not rely on that firearm to save your butt against the blade or you're likely to lose the encounter [ bringing a knife into play is rarely, if ever from 21 feet with enough notice you need to engage ]. If confronted from 5-8 feet, by the time most start the draw, a committed perp can stab you repeatedly. Because you have a gun on you doesn't mean they brought a knife to the gun fight, it's just the opposite.
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    Distinguished Member Array Wunderneun's Avatar
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    I was taught the 21' rule about a personal attack or an attack with a knife or other object.

    Two to the chest and one to the head. Repeat as necessary until target stops moving.
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    Member Array wysh's Avatar
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    A local s d instructor suggests a punch and run to unholster, or the use of surrounding objects at less than 20 feet. I need to watch more Jackie Chang movies.

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    BradL,

    This is worth proving to yourself. Use a dummy gun and let your son get a run at you. Remember, in this situation, you know it's coming. You probably won't in real life.
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    VIP Member Array OutWestSystems's Avatar
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    If I am in twenty feet of you with a knife out and you still have your firearm holstered, you are a dead man. That is why we have Rule #8, "Always carry a knife".

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    Quote Originally Posted by wysh View Post
    A local s d instructor suggests a punch and run to unholster, or the use of surrounding objects at less than 20 feet. I need to watch more Jackie Chang movies.
    I enjoy the times students "reach out" as that instructor recommends against a blade. What you've just done by attempting to punch them is given the blade an easier and closer target to cut. Demonstrated regularly in fof and edged weapons courses. A man with a blade that has his bearing and some training wants you to reach out so he can target that arm without having to reach in, and you open your core to his blade, right where he wants to feed it to you.
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    Someone coming at me with a knife at 20' or less, I'm praying I can get an arm up, preferably weak hand, to deflect his knife first. As for any shots. COM to stop the threat. Arms or legs there is too much chance of missing a moving target.
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    Member Array tony1990's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BradL View Post
    Was in the truck yesterday with my wife and 17 year old son. We were retuning home from a local gun show and were discussing some of the knives we saw that my son said he wanted. My wife made a comment about bringing a knife to a gun fight and my son said that he could get to me with a knife at 20 feet before I was able to draw and fire. I told him that it wasn't possible, that I'd drop an attacker before he got to me with the knife.

    This prompted a question from my wife about whether it's better to just fire at the attacker or try to threaten with loud words and point your gun at him/her, then if they don't stop, then fire. I said it's best to stop the attack immediatly. This brought up further questions from my son about shooting to kill or just shooting to mame. (Aim for a leg or something).

    I've always heard that you're better off in a defensive shooting situation to aim for center mass and make sure that the BG doesn't get back up. Also not to hesitate to pull the trigger and not try to threaten with words to stop an attack. My question, (after finally getting to it) is why it is the case, or is it?
    Don't just try to mame or wound the BG because even before he or she gets out of the hospital he or she will own your house, car, Guns and money... Very dumb idea.
    Always Fight Crime - Shoot back until it stops.
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