Aim for the Pelvis?

Aim for the Pelvis?

This is a discussion on Aim for the Pelvis? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I hate talking this way - sounds really cruel but it's a legitimate question on how to prevent innocent death in a deadly assault, so: ...

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Thread: Aim for the Pelvis?

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    Aim for the Pelvis?

    I hate talking this way - sounds really cruel but it's a legitimate question on how to prevent innocent death in a deadly assault, so:

    I've only seen a few mentions of this but I happened to meet in a gun store 2 Doctors who both were doing Trauma Room specialties, same hospital. Told me a number of interesting things from the angle of medical info and results of shootings they had seen and their own knowledge of the human body.

    They both recommended hitting the pelvis of the attacker with your shots: one main reason: if the point is quick stops and it's at close distances AND with but a handgun no matter what the caliber, it's a very dicey affair succeeding at this. You may or may not effect a quick stop. The attacker may or may not be able to continue the attack if shot. Lots of IFs.


    But the doctors said a hit in the pelvis that cracks or breaks it will HAVE to produce a quick-stop. Because it's anatomically impossible to stay on your feet with a broken/cracked pelvis, the structure of the human body doesn't allow it. They added the pain from such a wound is really agonal, and even if a weapon is near or in his hand the attacker would be so mentally immobilized by the pain there would no attention on using it or holding on to it.

    Any thoughts on this? Radical change from where we practice aiming. Perhaps it could be worked into initial sequence of shots: torso, head, pelvis - or torso, pelvis, head. Then again, we are supposed to stop shooting when the attack is over. Never understood theoretically if that means stop after one and check quickly. But - another topic there...

    Anyway, sorry for the grizzly post but we are trying to save innocent life.
    Last edited by detective; November 13th, 2013 at 02:44 AM.


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    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    I hate talking this way - sounds really cruel but it's a legitimate question on how to prevent innocent death in a deadly assault, so:
    ...snip...
    I'm sorry, but what?! Prevent an innocent death in a deadly assault? How is the BG trying to kill me or mine an innocent? You lost me there.
    "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
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    Senior Member Array Hatrix's Avatar
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    Just read an article from Massad Ayoob on this very technique. He also said that if you do have to fire on someone, hitting them in the pelvis can produce an almost instant knock down due to it being the main support of the body's frame. He also went on to the mental aspect of pointing a gun at some guys goodies. Some thugs think it a badge of honor in effect to be shot and like to show off their battle scars, knowing full well often times a shot to the torso can be survived. But NO MAN would dare make a move on someone holding their very manhood in their sights.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    I hate talking this way - sounds really cruel but it's a legitimate question on how to prevent innocent death in a deadly assault, so:

    I've only seen a few mentions of this but I happen to meet in a gun store 2 Doctors who both were doing Trauma Room specialties, same hospital. Told me a number of interesting things from the angle of medical info and results of shootings they had seen and their own knowledge of the human body.

    They both recommended hitting the pelvis of the attacker with your shots: one main reason: if the point is quick stops and it's at close distances AND with but a handgun no matter what the caliber, it's a very dicey affair succeeding at this. You may or may not effect a quick stop. The attacker may or may not be able to continue the attack if shot. Lots of IFs.


    But the doctors said a hit in the pelvis that cracks or breaks it will HAVE to produce a quick-stop. Because it's anatomically impossible to stay on your feet with a broken/cracked pelvis, the structure of the human body doesn't allow it. They added the pain from such a wound is really agonal, and even if a weapon is near or in his hand the attacker would be so mentally immobilized by the pain there would no attention on using it or holding on to it.

    Any thoughts on this? Radical change from where we practice aiming. Perhaps it could be worked into initial sequence of shots: torso, head, pelvis - or torso, pelvis, head. Then again, we are supposed to stop shooting when the attack is over. Never understood theoretically if that means stop after one and check quickly. But - another topic there...

    Anyway, sorry for the grizzly post but it we are trying t save innocent life.
    Its not a radical change it has been around for a while. The doctors IMO are correct, if they cant stand they can not fight on their feet. Pain is subjective, I would not bank anything on them not wanting to continue. If they do great, but do not count on it...
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    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    Yes I have heard of this before and in my training within the military, we are taught that shooting at the pelvis will normally stop and attacker. The government have sent me to various type of small arms training with many former and retired Special Operations types who have all taught to shoot for the pelvic area as one of the areas to target. Their statements mirror what these doctors are saying, shooting the pelvis will likely seriously damage the area making it impossible for someone to walk. Now even though they may not be able to walk, they will still have use of their arms to shoot a gun. Depending on drugs, motivations to kill you, etc they still would be a threat.

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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    I'm sorry, but what?! Prevent an innocent death in a deadly assault? How is the BG trying to kill me or mine an innocent? You lost me there.
    +1 Yes, I know - I meant the talk about it. I know the Act of SD is not a choice (unless you enjoy death)
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    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    I'm sorry, but what?! Prevent an innocent death in a deadly assault? How is the BG trying to kill me or mine an innocent? You lost me there.
    There is a decent chance that the BG would bleed out. Bone fragments from the pelvis would likely puncture the femoral artery causing a great deal of blood loss. The truth to me is that I am not trying to kill the bad guy, I am trying to protect my loved ones and myself using what ever means I may have. Carrying a firearm is the additional last resort method to protect what I love. However, using a firearm for protection and to stop the threat quickly usually means shooting for vital parts of the body that will most likely cause serious injury or death.
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    Senior Member Array NETim's Avatar
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    Clint Smith will also advise to shoot for the pelvis IF that's what's available. It moves less than other parts of the body comparatively speaking. It CAN stop an attacker. IF the pelvic bone or head of the femur is broken.

    As has been said previously, lots of "IF's."
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    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
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    The attack is over when the BG either runs submits or falls.

    The good Doctors are high on their anatomy scores but not so much on their ballistics I dont think.
    True you cant stand with a broken pelvis. Breaking it with a handgun is entirely something else. Bullets from a handgun dont usually shatter a sternum. They either hit it and stop or punch a hole in it and keep going.

    Pelvic bone is a lot sturdier than a sternum. From what research ive done on this after hearing about it what usually happens is the bullet either hits it stops, hits it and is diverted or hits it and punches a hole thru it, rarely from what I can read does a handgun round actually break it to the point it isnt weight bearing anymore.

    I guess it could happen and probably having a pistol aimed at their junk might have a bigger mental impact but the rest is pretty iffy.
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    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    ...it's a legitimate question on how to prevent innocent death in a deadly assault, so:
    I think the idea of a pelvis shot is that it is a low angle shot which would extend any pass-through rounds into the ground and lower risk to innocent bystanders.
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    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    The 'pelvis shot' has long been established in the Failure To Stop category. It can be seen as a follow up target if the first burst to (com of whatever was available) did not stop or immobilize an attacker. As far as someone ceasing all hostilities due to pain because they were shot in the pelvis, I'm not buying that as an absolute. Search enough Ayoob Files, and other shooting related research, and you'll likely find folks shot in all kindsa painful places who continued to fight. The only sure, absolute, one shot stop, is that which destroys the CNS.

    What you'll soon see here is folks decrying the PS (pelvis shot) as the first alternative. I agree. Unless that's the first presentable target. Just as a quick example, you were just walking down a street, minding your own business, and an attack initiated from an alley as you passed, and your attacker was over head wielding a machete. As you drew, and likely ducked down, a PS from retention would be a very do-able shot. IF the attacker did not fall due to broken bones, or pain, and the threat advanced or continued, then you would likely fire up the thoracic area until a stop is achieved, or you realize that due to adrenaline dump and whatever else is in his system, he ain't feelin' it. Or you haven't hit the CNS. So, you may go to a Failure to Stop sequence, and shoot him in the face/head. Or, if both parties are moving, as I'm betting they are, you again attempt to break down his structure and mobility with PS.

    Said all that to say all this: shoot the center of mass of whatever the best target is at the time, until you get a better target. Then, shoot that till the problem is solved.

    dan

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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    Point of Aim?

    Where exactly is the point of aim in a clothed person for the pelvis? Seems like a large area and where to spot the small "bullseye" vague when you're seeing pants and belts, shirts hanging down, maybe a jacket etc - least to me it does.
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    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    I think the idea of a pelvis shot is that it is a low angle shot which would extend any pass-through rounds into the ground and lower risk to innocent bystanders.
    I didn't take that into account, but it makes sense.
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    I think it is a perfect way to stop an attack with or without a gun . All self defense hand to hand or feet to groin will double over most men and a possible way to get away to fight or live again . Even Primates go after the groin parts .
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    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    Perhaps it's something to consider but I just can't see myself going for a pelvis shot off gate. If the situation I found myself in made it the best available shot, sure, but it wouldn't be my first choice of place to aim in attempts to save my life or others.
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    "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
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