Judge, county official duel over gun laws: NY Judge stands his ground/enforces law
This is a discussion on Judge, county official duel over gun laws: NY Judge stands his ground/enforces law within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; a bit of a read but it's worth it!! ...especially if you live in NY
bold is mine. snagged the intro text below from another ...
December 13th, 2006 10:25 AM
Judge, county official duel over gun laws: NY Judge stands his ground/enforces law
a bit of a read but it's worth it!! ...especially if you live in NY
bold is mine. snagged the intro text below from another site...this paper posted the names of CCW holders in a couple of NY counties two or three days ago. This list includes police officers and DAs. NOT very responsible if you ask me.
Originally Posted by intro from another website, I didn't write it
A war of words over how changes to gun permits are made has erupted
between Deputy Westchester County Executive Larry Schwartz and state
Supreme Court Justice J. Emmett Murphy after Murphy signed off on an
Ossining man's request to have his pistol permit amended, without
waiting for a recommendation from county police.
"It is unconscionable that a member of the judiciary would circumvent
the very process implemented to ensure the safety and security of
county residents,'' Schwartz wrote in a scathing Dec. 6 letter to
Judge Francis Nicolai, administrative judge for the 9th Judicial District.
Schwartz's letter also threatens to disband the county police pistol
permit unit and says he's "giving serious consideration to filing a
formal complaint against Judge Murphy.''
In a Dec. 8 reply, Murphy, who describes himself as an "enthusiastic
member of the target and sport shooting community,'' says his action
came in response to complaints from fellow pistol enthusiasts who say
applications for permit changes "are being denied by county personnel
right at the counter, and rejected and returned without being
forwarded to the Court as required by law.''
The brouhaha comes at a time when County Executive Andrew Spano is
seeking special legislation from Albany that would eliminate the
County Clerk's Office and court from the pistol permit process and
put the whole system into the hands of county police. If enacted, the
legislation would designate the county Public Safety Commissioner as
the licensing officer, with the authority to approve or deny permit
applications. Spano's effort was first reported Sunday in The Journal News.
Schwartz's letter was written after Ossining resident John C. Picucci
applied Nov. 14 to have his pistol permit changed to a "full carry''
permit that would allow him to bring his weapon with him whenever he
wanted. According to the letter, an hour after Picucci was advised by
the county police pistol permit unit to explain in writing why he
needed the change, Murphy came to the pistol permit office with a
copy of the application that he had signed, approving the full carry permit.
The documents Picucci had been told to provide "were not submitted,
and the amendment was not filed or reviewed by the Department of
Public Safety prior to the judge's approval,'' the Schwartz letter says.
Schwartz notes that the county is trying to take over authority for
the pistol permit process and says that if the court is going to
issue permits without input from police, he'll recommend that the
police pistol permit be disbanded. He adds that he's directed police
not to issue Picucci's full carry permit.
By signing Picucci's application, Schwartz writes, Murphy denied
county police the chance to "conduct a proper law enforcement
review'' and to document Picucci's need for a full carry permit.
"To approve a full carry permit in a matter of hours for an
individual that the police had no opportunity to review... is
irresponsible at best,'' Schwartz concludes.
Picucci, reached at the deli he owns in Millwood, had no comment yesterday.
Murphy, who sent his reply to Nicolai, wrote that he's known Picucci
for "some time.'' After learning that Picucci wanted a full carry
permit, the judge says he told him to make the application at the
clerk's office. "I also asked him to pay attention to what was
happening and not to get upset or argue if he was refused; just note
what happened and call me immediately afterward,'' Murphy says in his letter.
A few days later, Murphy writes, Picucci told him that he had been
informed by police that he doesn't qualify for a full carry permit.
"At that point, as feared, the system failed (Picucci) completely,''
Murphy writes. "His application to the Court was filed, heard, denied
and amended without any member of the judiciary hearing it.''
Nicolai said that Murphy acted within state law, which designates
judges as the licensing officers for pistol permits except in New
York City and Nassau and Suffolk counties, where police are the
"I have no problem with the county's proposal to modify the
legislation,'' Nicolai said yesterday, "but until that happens, we're
operating under the laws that exist.''
Murphy likewise said yesterday that "in an ideal world I would have
no problem with changing the law."
"But what better evidence could you have that it would be the county
making the decision, not the police commissioner?'' he said.
Describing Schwartz as "rash, impetuous and vindictive,'' he said, "I
don't think the shooting public would want him in charge of the
process. I think they'd prefer a variety of elected judges, the way
the vast majority of the other counties handle this.''
Late yesterday, Schwartz accused Murphy of issuing full carry permits
"based on favoritism and political cronyism, not on the
recommendation of police, who are the real experts in this. This
isn't the first time he's done an end around on the police and issued
a full carry permit. This is a public safety issue. We aren't against
responsible people having guns, but they have to adhere to some
reasonable criteria and standard. They shouldn't receive a permit
just because they're politically connected.''
December 13th, 2006 10:55 AM
"not on the recommendation of police, who are the real experts in this"...since when are ANTI-GUN COUNTY EXECUTIVEs & LEOs experts on the who can have a firearm & who can't? I daresay that a lot of New York COUNTY EXECUTIVES & most NY LEOs would not want ANYBODY to have guns. Judges can look up criminal history as easy as an 'expert County Executive'.
Originally Posted by raysheen
"This isn't the first time he's done an end around on the police and issued a full carry permit."......since the County Executive & LEOs didn't OBEY THE LAW, it left little choice.
"We aren't against responsible people having guns, but they have to adhere to some reasonable criteria and standard.".....Yea, what a load. They just want THEIR cronies to have them.
This is a good example of why politicians should NOT be involved in this process. Laws on the issuance of permits should be clear, concise & penalties for violating the process should be as severe as the ones for abusing the permit.
A vote is like a rifle, its usefulness is based on the character of the user -T Roosevelt
If you carry a gun, some will call you paranoid. If I carry, what do I have to be paranoid about? -C Smith
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it. -J Cooper
December 13th, 2006 09:47 PM
Hadn't heard of the proposal to put the County Sheriff in charge and cut the court out. I wish! That's where all the waiting takes place.
December 13th, 2006 10:57 PM
"...Schwartz accused Murphy of issuing full carry permits "based on favoritism and political cronyism, not on the recommendation of police, who are the real experts in this...
We aren't against responsible people having guns, but they have to adhere to some reasonable criteria and standard..."
...Needs a new job!
Sounds like the police call you 'guilty'...and you prove you're not!
That's the problem with not having 'Shall Issue'...you have to prove to someone that you're 'worthy'...PUKE...
They should have to prove that you are NOT qualified to have that permit...it's called 'shall issue'.
We should have nation-wide shall issue and recognition...PERIOD!
Proverbs 27:12 says: “The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
December 13th, 2006 11:59 PM
The police nor the judges should have the ability to restrict licences in NYS. These restrictions are administrative and not covered under the existing penal code. We need to have right-to-carry legislation (i.e. a law) that specifically mandates the issuance of full carry permits if the applicant meets the requirements under the statute.
Unless/until the politics change in NYS, we will not have a RTC law on the books.
NYers...do your part!
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