Gunfight erupts outside bank

This is a discussion on Gunfight erupts outside bank within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What did we say would happen when guns are outlawed? Well, they aren't quite outlawed in Maryland but just about... And what has this to ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Gunfight erupts outside bank

    What did we say would happen when guns are outlawed? Well, they aren't quite outlawed in Maryland but just about...

    And what has this to do with carry issues? Simple: If Maryland was shall issue and if the people there weren't such , perhaps this kind of stuff wouldn't happen, or if it did, would turn out worse for the perps.



    Gunfight Erupts Outside Bank
    Aspen Hill Robbery Foiled; Guard Hit


    By Ernesto Londoņo
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Friday, December 15, 2006; B01

    Dozens of bystanders dove for cover yesterday morning at an Aspen Hill strip mall as a band of robbers got into a shootout with two employees of an armored-truck company.
    The robbers later carjacked a teenage girl as she was about to pump gas, and they remained at large last night.
    One of the workers on the armored truck was shot but was not seriously wounded, police said. He was treated at a local hospital and released, they said. At least six vehicles at or passing by the Layhill Center were struck by bullets.
    The Dunbar armored-truck employees arrived at the Bank of America branch at 2101 Bel Pre Rd. about 11 a.m., Montgomery County police said. One of the employees was walking toward the back of the truck to retrieve money when he saw two men approaching.
    "One [robber] lifted up his coat," displaying a handgun, said Lt. Eric Burnett, Montgomery County police spokesman. "Numerous shots were fired."
    Burnett said it was unclear who fired first.
    The gun battle lasted several minutes, according to witnesses, with several accomplices of the gunmen joining in.
    "We know one was hit," Burnett said, referring to the robbers. Police believe that four to six men tried to commit the robbery.
    As the bullets started flying, the handful of patrons and employees at a nearby nail salon hit the ground.
    "They ran for cover and then locked the door," said Sang Nail and Facial manager Kim Nguyen.
    Two of the robbers then ran toward the Sunoco gas station next to the bank and approached a teenager who had just gotten out of her Volkswagen Jetta to get gas.
    One of the men put a gun to her head and demanded the keys, said Orlando Fuentes, who was next to the girl, speaking with his brother on the phone when the shootout began.
    "She didn't want to give up the car," said Fuentes, 45, of Silver Spring, so the men started yelling at her.
    "Give me your car! Give me your car! Move it, stupid!" one yelled, according to Fuentes, who like other customers at the gas station hit the ground when the shooting began.
    The woman also dove to the ground crying as the men drove off in her car, said Fuentes, a painter, who was in a van that was struck by a bullet.
    Two of the robbers fled in the Jetta, which police later recovered near the strip mall. The others apparently fled in a silver Chrysler minivan, police said. The carjacking victim was not physically hurt.
    One of the bullets lodged in the passenger door of a Sears van driven by Ebenezer Brown, who also witnessed the carjacking.
    "As soon as I saw one of them with the gun, I ran," he said yesterday afternoon, still visibly shaken. "I was scared."
    Detectives and uniformed officers spent several hours at the scene yesterday interviewing witnesses and searching the ground for shell casings. They closed a large portion of the strip mall's parking lot, leaving some drivers stranded and a handful of businesses inaccessible.
    Police said at least one of the robbers in yesterday's case was shot, and they urged hospital and drugstore personnel to be on the lookout for someone seeking treatment for a gunshot wound. The wounded Dunbar employee was released from the hospital yesterday, police spokeswoman Lucille Baur said.
    Police said the robbers were Hispanic men in their early 20s who spoke heavily accented English. They did not release a more detailed description.
    Police and a Dunbar spokesman declined to identify the employees or provide detailed information about the security procedures they follow or the types of weapons they carry.
    Dunbar, based in Hunt Valley, Md., has 4,500 employees and 1,000 trucks, said spokesman Sean Gibbons.
    Last year, 34 armored vehicles were robbed in the country, FBI spokeswoman Catherine L. Milhoan said.
    The number of armored-vehicle robberies for the three previous years has fluctuated: 46 robberies were reported in 2002, 23 in 2003 and 46 in 2004, Milhoan said.
    "What has happened in recent years is we've seen more during the holidays," said Larry Sabbath, executive director of the National Armored Car Association. "People are looking for money; the bad guys are looking for money just like anyone else."
    The attempted robbery followed an unusual spate of three armed bank robberies within minutes on Wednesday morning along the same busy thoroughfare.
    A cashier at the gas station where yesterday's carjacking occurred was fatally shot in March 2005. That homicide remains unsolved. Syed Rizvi, 55, was shot after handing over money to a robber on the afternoon of March 1.
    Anyone with information about yesterday's armed robbery is asked to call the police department's robbery section at 240-773-5100.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    If people were allowed to carry many of the witnesses could have changed outcome. Would they have though? Each case is different and getting involved could get you killed. That is a decision each person has to make.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array XD in SC's Avatar
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    That would be real tough when caught off guard in such a situation.

    You would really have to be looking at what was happening and know where it started.
    Sean
    XD 9SC | XD 45ACP Service | XD 45ACP Compact |Borealis
    "You may know where you are. God may know where you are. If you don't tell your dispatcher where you are, you'd better be on speaking terms with God!"

  5. #4
    Member Array orbrit's Avatar
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    In that situation if the shoot out is between the armed guards and the robbers, I think the best course of action is make yourself invisible and get out of the line of fire. They were trying to escape, not kill people. Yes they were endangering life but would you want to make yourself a target with 4 or 5 against 1?
    Our right to carry isn't so we can play hero or try to enforce the law - it is for personal protection.
    If I was in a hostage situation in a bank and they were starting to execute customers, then sure - I'd make good use of my CCW then but if it's just people robbing a bank and no one is getting harmed then I'm not going to get shot by posing a threat to the robbers.

    Some of you may have heard the examples of justified vs unjustified shootings during your CCW classes. The one that sticks in my mind is the passer by who shoots an armed man with his CCW as the man is standing over another man who's lying on the ground looking like a victim in danger.
    As it turns out, the guy on the ground was the orginal armed robber and the guy standing over him was the victim that managed to wrestle the weapon away.

    So many judgement calls to make in a split second. What a huge responsibility it is when we carry concealed.

  6. #5
    Member Array Tros's Avatar
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    I agree 100%, orbrit.

    In a perfect world people could play hero, and save the day. In the real world you chance getting killed, going broke from all of the legal expenses, being away from your family for quite awhile, live with the fact that you killed a person, etc.

    You may be completely justified for killing a man, but that won't stop you from having restless nights, questions that can't be answered, and other psychological issues.

    There is a reason so many professionals say the most powerful weapon you have is between your ears.

    Use your best judgment people. :)
    Beretta 92FS

  7. #6
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    All You Need...

    in this situation (as a witness) is to dial 911 and mark your calendar for a guess...as to when the police arrive. Stay hidden, or find cover...
    I would NOT get involved...

    OMO

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    Member Array orbrit's Avatar
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    Coming from England where firearms are pretty tightly controlled (no handguns or semi auto/automatic rifles) you would assume that gun related crime would be minimal. The cops are unarmed - they carry a telescopic baton and there are quick reaction armed units in major cities.
    Statistically there was a reduction in gun related crime when gun control was changed in 1988.(post Hungerford massacre). Handguns were still allowed until 1997 then a disgruntled ex Scoute leader killed 16 kids with a legal handgun. Now they're almost impossible to attain.
    Although gun related crime is on the rise it is still a lot lower than the US.
    =================
    From Wikipedia...

    Despite its high crime rate Britain has a low murder rate per capita, accounting for 853 murders in the reporting period 2003/04 according to the Home Office's Crime Statistics. The UK's population is more than 60 million, which translates into fewer than 1.3 murders per 100,000 residents in the UK. By comparison, in 2000, police in the United States reported 5.5 murders for every 100,000 population. In addition, 70% of murders in the United States involve firearms compared to 6% in the United Kingdom.
    ===============
    I think this illustrates that if citizens are armed, criminals also have to be.

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    I think this illustrates that if citizens are armed, criminals also have to be.
    I feel the need to modify/reverse that -

    ''I think this illustrates that if criminals are armed, law abiding citizens also have to be.''
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

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    Member Array PAPACHUCK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    I feel the need to modify/reverse that -

    ''I think this illustrates that if criminals are armed, law abiding citizens also have to be.''
    +1000
    FREEDOM MATTERS!

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    Senior Member Array razorblade's Avatar
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    On the other side of the Maryland spectrum:
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-.../posts?page=15
    I remember watching this on my local news. They interviewed someone "off the street" that made a comment of "yes, he has every right to defend himself, however, he did not need to shoot the robber. He (the defender) should have just gave him the money."

    Ahh, Maryland. In need of a Shepherd.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Nick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    ''I think this illustrates that if criminals are armed, law abiding citizens also have to be.''
    Agree 100%
    "To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them."
    George Mason


    "Gun control is a job-safety program for criminals."
    John R. Lott

  13. #12
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    Coming from England where firearms are pretty tightly controlled (no handguns or semi auto/automatic rifles) you would assume that gun related crime would be minimal. The cops are unarmed - they carry a telescopic baton and there are quick reaction armed units in major cities.
    Statistically there was a reduction in gun related crime when gun control was changed in 1988.(post Hungerford massacre). Handguns were still allowed until 1997 then a disgruntled ex Scoute leader killed 16 kids with a legal handgun. Now they're almost impossible to attain.
    Although gun related crime is on the rise it is still a lot lower than the US.
    If I recall correctly ,EVERYTHINGthat looks,smells or even remotley resembles a weapon in England is tightly cotrolled...even steak knves. Armed "quick reaction"units are a joke. The problem is that they arent called until AFTER you have been killed by some perp that laughs at the law and uses them to their advantage.


    So your post is revelant HOW ? Are you suggesting that we disarm ourselves in hopes that the perps will follow so that we can be totally helpless like those in England ?
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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    Member Array orbrit's Avatar
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    Define helpless... is that growing up in an environment of constant vigilance due to real terrorist threat in every supermarket, mall, school, train station, airport, high street, and having your wits about you all the time...

    OR

    is helpless growing up in a nation that is so "mighty" that you are safe within the bubble of ignorance.... safe because you think that carrying a weapon makes you "armed". The perception of safety is further distorted by making people think they can react to a life threatening situation by providing them with 8 hours of training and issuing them with a license that entitles them to carry concealed.

    Who's the helpless one?

    Just my 2 pence
    :)

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    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    It's probably better to not intervene in such a situation. But if I KNEW what was happening, and I could do so, I might be tempted to intervene if the situation were to my likeing (heavily in my favor).

    I've got a rifle in my truck, and I can see being far enough away from the BG's to not worry much about them shooting me before I get the rifle sights on them.

    But the situation would have to be heavily in my favor. It is worth noting, too, that Oklahoma law allows (but does not require) intervention- - not all states do.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array razorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbrit View Post
    is helpless growing up in a nation that is so "mighty" that you are safe within the bubble of ignorance.... safe because you think that carrying a weapon makes you "armed". The perception of safety is further distorted by making people think they can react to a life threatening situation by providing them with 8 hours of training and issuing them with a license that entitles them to carry concealed.

    Who's the helpless one?
    First of all, I take direct offense to your comments. You may not have said “America” directly, but that is what was implied in your paragraph. For the record: I am an American, and no, I do not live in a bubble of ignorance. I carry a concealed weapon because just like having wits, I may be required someday to use them. Knowledge (in my opinion) is a tool, just like a pistol, knife, flashlight, or anything you'd carry for self-defense. Being able to avoid a situation by exercising keen judgment is just as important as being able to put rounds center mass. I for one, would not like to live in a place where my “tools” were limited. That is the only reason that is keeping me from living in the District of Columbia. In regards to your “8 hours of training” comment, many people who obtain a CCW permit, maintain supplementary proficiency on their own time. I can not speak for everyone, but the people I know (who do carry concealed), maintain proficiency by visiting the range weekly or every other week. I know how important proficiency is, therefore I train weekly. I have served this country in the U.S. Marines, where I received my introduction in firearms. I am a current IPSC shooter (they have IPSC in Great Britain, however they use shotguns), I have attended several moderate to advanced tactical shooting courses (using money from my own pocket). I also keep up-to-date with current laws, rules and regulations for my area. I have read your previous posts, and you say you carry a Glock 19. So you should understand exactly what I am saying. I carry, because I choose to. Not because it is ingrained in American popular culture. Most people (regardless of their country of origin) whom do not possess a firearm, have a pretty warped sense of what a gun is used for, what it is capable of doing, and the degree of responsibility to which belongs with firearms ownership. In America, we have the First Amendment, which gives us the freedom to speak. Therefore, I shall respect your opinions. However (comma) I will lump your comments with those from the Brady Bunch http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=ccw
    The same people that feel I am too inept to protect myself, or defend my loved ones.

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