Is there a way of measuring recoil?

Is there a way of measuring recoil?

This is a discussion on Is there a way of measuring recoil? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I hope to get my wife to a range soon to make use of our gift certificate which comes with range fees, gun rental and ...

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Thread: Is there a way of measuring recoil?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
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    Is there a way of measuring recoil?

    I hope to get my wife to a range soon to make use of our gift certificate which comes with range fees, gun rental and targets.
    I know my PX4C 9mm has little recoil, but, if she finds it to stiff, I would like to know ahead of time what would be a good alternative.

    I posted here because I am hoping that she also carries.

    I know the larger the frame the less the recoil. But, she is 5'2" and not about to carry a 1911.
    For economically, and energy from muzzle reasons, I would like to stay with 9mm, but, I am open minded. I just don't want her to have to empty the magazine to stop one BG.

    Does anyone know of a recoil comparison or have a few hundred guns so they can give some personal experience feedback?

    Thanks
    Nehemiah 4:14: “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord who is great and awesome, and draw your Beretta PX4 and fight for your brothers, your sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes.” highlighted added by LMP


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array flintlock62's Avatar
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    What do you mean by "stiff", recoil? Maybe a 380 would work for her. Do you have a range close that rents guns? Ergonomics also play a part in felt recoil. A gun that better fits the hand will have less felt recoil. Weight is always a factor. The lighter any gun is, the more its going to be felt. HK claims less recoil due to their spring design.

    I can guarantee you that I can shoot your current gun, and the recoil I feel will be different from the way you perceive it.

    Free Recoil Energy is really kinetic energy and so can be expressed mathematically as -
    F.R.E. = lrMVz
    Where -
    M = is the mass (or the weight of the firearm divided by 32.17) and
    V = is the velocity of the recoiling firearm,
    To determine the velocity of the recoiling firearm we can use the formula:
    V
    Wo*Vu *W o'*V "
    7000xW "
    Where -
    W" = Weight (in grains) of the ejecta (bullet or shot and wad column)
    V" = Velocity of ejecta in feet per second
    Won = Weight of propellant gases
    Von = Velocity (fps) of propellant gases
    7000 = Conversion factor for grains to pounds
    W = Weight of firearm in pounds

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Grant48's Avatar
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    Have you considered a "big" pistol in .380 (relatively speaking)? The Beretta Cheetah comes to mind.

    Also, the EAA Pavona is fairly substantial, as a compact variant of the fullsize EAA Witness. It's available in .380 (as well as 9mm and .40). I'm sure there are other fullsize-ish pistols available in .380. The combination of size, weight, and caliber should result in minimal felt recoil.
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    It's difficult for most women to rack the slide on nearly any handgun. The best option is a gun that is "large enough" to allow for an easier movement of the slide while still being small-enough for them to realistically want to carry. Tight, little "pocket guns" are a terrible choice for a woman. Something more the size of a SIG P239 in 9mm is the better option. Manipulating a tiny gun, regardless of what it is chambered in, is very difficult for a woman. Avoid them.
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  5. #5
    VIP Member Array LimaCharlie's Avatar
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    I usually start new shooters with a semi-auto .22 LR to get them used to shooting and then work up. The Sig P239 or the Bersa .380 AP are good starter self-defense guns for small stature people. There is measured or calculated recoil and felt recoil. Recoil can be calculated the same for two guns, but one feels less than the other due to grip size, grip angle, bore height, etc.
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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    I could get into all the formial for the stuff but I like to think of it this way :

    1. It depeds on the recoil system .. Fixed barrel guns can be jummper
    2. It depeds on the metal or plastic .. All almost all metal gun ( a 69/ 92 etc) will not jump as much as a plastic gun usally
    3. In many case the bore axis and the grips make a difference



    Most very small carry guns can kick pretty hard esp for new shooter while a big full frame gun will not ...


    A sig 238 and 938 to me has some of the lowest felt recoil ( which make it easeir to bring back to target ) then other guns .. This is due to it being all metal I think ... To me a great carry gun


    Also these bretta guns are to me pretty low recoile and thanks to the barrel there is no need to rack the gun
    1. The bretta tomcat in 32 acp ( inox or widelide ) is pretty soft to me and 32acp still packs a bit of punch esp with steel core ammo
    2. The 85 or 85 much largers guns but like a 380 92 so very soft shooting



    I would also look at a 6906 or 3913 all metal guns ... They make a whole line of ladysmith gun s&w does ... the 3913 is one of them...

    Really the best bet is to try a lot out and see what she likes


    The issue is that many pocket gun are helped a lot by rubber grips and heavier springs which few range guns have ....
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    VIP Member Array Jaeger's Avatar
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    X2. Get her a full sized, all steel .380. Look for as close to 24oz as you can. Colt, CZ, Beretta, Walther, etc.

    There are not many current production models, as lighter, plastic, smaller is all the rage, so you are probably going to want to look at a used one.

    Were it my wife I'd say a Walther PPK or PPKs (which are new). They're also beautiful pistols that I would think any woman would find sexy to carry over a more masculine looking Mustang.
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    VIP Member Array WrongRecroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeger View Post
    X2. Get her a full sized, all steel .380. Look for as close to 24oz as you can. Colt, CZ, Beretta, Walther, etc.

    There are not many current production models, as lighter, plastic, smaller is all the rage, so you are probably going to want to look at a used one.

    Were it my wife I'd say a Walther PPK or PPKs (which are new). They're also beautiful pistols that I would think any woman would find sexy to carry over a more masculine looking Mustang.
    PPK is good the issue is some of the s&w models are a crap shoot and the older ones are pricy .. But they are nice guns
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    “Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.” H.L. Mencken
    "Vous ne les laisserez pas passer, mes camarades"
    "We're surrounded. That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them."Chesty Puller

  9. #9
    Member Array GerryS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuvMyPX4 View Post
    I hope to get my wife to a range soon to make use of our gift certificate which comes with range fees, gun rental and targets.
    I know my PX4C 9mm has little recoil, but, if she finds it to stiff, I would like to know ahead of time what would be a good alternative.

    I posted here because I am hoping that she also carries.

    I know the larger the frame the less the recoil. But, she is 5'2" and not about to carry a 1911.
    For economically, and energy from muzzle reasons, I would like to stay with 9mm, but, I am open minded. I just don't want her to have to empty the magazine to stop one BG.

    Does anyone know of a recoil comparison or have a few hundred guns so they can give some personal experience feedback?

    Thanks
    My wife loves our PX4 Compact because of the low recoil. She will shoot the 380 Bodyguard and the 9mm Shield, but they have a bit more recoil. The 92FS is a great shooter, and has less recoil than the PX4, but she finds it a bit too heavy. She shot one round of 45 out of the Dan Wesson CCO and put it back down. Too much recoil, which really surprised me because she really gets a grin when shooting the 6" 686 with 158gr magnum loads.

    Gerry
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  10. #10
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    I tend to stay away from generalities like women have a hard time doing this that or the other.

    Your wife was smart enough to choose you as her mate she can figure out guns.

    Just my opinion my wife shoots a little airweight and she figured out the extended grips and what load she wants and I will be honest I would not want her shooting at me from zero to 25 yards.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by flintlock62 View Post
    What do you mean by "stiff", recoil? Maybe a 380 would work for her. Do you have a range close that rents guns? Ergonomics also play a part in felt recoil. A gun that better fits the hand will have less felt recoil. Weight is always a factor. The lighter any gun is, the more its going to be felt. HK claims less recoil due to their spring design.

    I can guarantee you that I can shoot your current gun, and the recoil I feel will be different from the way you perceive it.

    Free Recoil Energy is really kinetic energy and so can be expressed mathematically as -
    F.R.E. = lrMVz
    Where -
    M = is the mass (or the weight of the firearm divided by 32.17) and
    V = is the velocity of the recoiling firearm,
    To determine the velocity of the recoiling firearm we can use the formula:
    V
    Wo*Vu *W o'*V "
    7000xW "
    Where -
    W" = Weight (in grains) of the ejecta (bullet or shot and wad column)
    V" = Velocity of ejecta in feet per second
    Won = Weight of propellant gases
    Von = Velocity (fps) of propellant gases
    7000 = Conversion factor for grains to pounds
    W = Weight of firearm in pounds

    Handgun Recoil Table
    WOW, this brought me back to my college days. I guess two variable that are not present are the type of barrel (my PX4C uses a rotating barrel to reduce recoil) and spring strength/stroke
    But thanks. I like math, and this brought back all those wonderful horrible formulas i had to learn.
    Nehemiah 4:14: “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord who is great and awesome, and draw your Beretta PX4 and fight for your brothers, your sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes.” highlighted added by LMP

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by manolito View Post
    I tend to stay away from generalities like women have a hard time doing this that or the other.

    Your wife was smart enough to choose you as her mate she can figure out guns.

    Just my opinion my wife shoots a little airweight and she figured out the extended grips and what load she wants and I will be honest I would not want her shooting at me from zero to 25 yards.
    I was lucky to get her, I am still trying to figure out why she chose me. If your wife is that good, I would stay out of her way too.
    Nehemiah 4:14: “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord who is great and awesome, and draw your Beretta PX4 and fight for your brothers, your sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes.” highlighted added by LMP

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array Chuck808's Avatar
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    A carry gun will be small. A soft shooting gun will be big. If she wants a target gun, it will be nice to shoot. If she wants an easily carrying gun for defense, that uses a proven defensive load, it will have some snap to it.

    You're assuming it may be too much for her, and I wouldn't do that. I'm sure she can hold her own. I've taken girls to the range who are 5' 105lbs and they were having a blast throwing 12ga slugs down range. Explain to her that small guns that she can easily carry on body are going to have a bit of recoil. I'm sure she would understand and be able to overcome it. I generally carry my Glock 17, and it's a dream to shoot, buy my Ruger LCP is definitely snappy and much harder to shoot. Easier to carry? Sure. Would I suggest it to a new gun owner? Nah. I'd start them on a full size 9mm, after letting them get the basic motions down on a .22lr pistol if possible.

    I'd say just start her on your easiest shooting gun, whatever the size or caliber. Just make sure it's a simple gun. Of course she can understand a more complicated battery of controls, but even for us gun guys who do this for fun, simple is simple.

  14. #14
    Member Array dhuffman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longstreet View Post
    It's difficult for most women to rack the slide on nearly any handgun. The best option is a gun that is "large enough" to allow for an easier movement of the slide while still being small-enough for them to realistically want to carry. Tight, little "pocket guns" are a terrible choice for a woman. Something more the size of a SIG P239 in 9mm is the better option. Manipulating a tiny gun, regardless of what it is chambered in, is very difficult for a woman. Avoid them.
    That is not wholly accurate. I have absolutely no problem with my Sig P238 but the Ruger SR22 is a little tight and I have no problem with my friend's Glock. I'm a small female 4'9". The Sig fits my hand perfectly, the Glock not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhuffman View Post
    That is not wholly accurate. I have absolutely no problem with my Sig P238 but the Ruger SR22 is a little tight and I have no problem with my friend's Glock. I'm a small female 4'9". The Sig fits my hand perfectly, the Glock not so much.
    You brought up a question. I have never heard of a way to judge the grip for proper fit. I always assumed if you put the web of your hand firmly under the tail, and as long as the middle of the first pad of the trigger finger fit squarely on the trigger, all is well.
    Is there another way or a guide to judge fit and grip?
    Nehemiah 4:14: “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord who is great and awesome, and draw your Beretta PX4 and fight for your brothers, your sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes.” highlighted added by LMP

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