You're ATTACKED! You ACT! You're OK............. EXCEPT! :

You're ATTACKED! You ACT! You're OK............. EXCEPT! :

This is a discussion on You're ATTACKED! You ACT! You're OK............. EXCEPT! : within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This has been gone into here a number of times, but I have a very specific question that I don't believe was touched on: The ...

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Thread: You're ATTACKED! You ACT! You're OK............. EXCEPT! :

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    You're ATTACKED! You ACT! You're OK............. EXCEPT! :

    This has been gone into here a number of times, but I have a very specific question that I don't believe was touched on:

    The most dangerous moment in a lethal attack is of course that: the lethal attack. But if you survive out of danger unwounded it ain't over til the fat lady sings, and she's not even in the theater yet.

    The police are coming and this is a close danger to the first, the attack. Pumped up on adrenaline, afraid for their lives, on the line when they arrive, arriving en-mass and therefore with "group-contagion", you can easily now, after it's "safe" get shot and by a fusillade of shots. (the "contagion").

    So, say you have this scenario: on foot after dusk, maybe walking from your parked car to a friend's house, you're out of nowhere about to die as a man with a knife runs at you full speed. You draw, just as you're about fire, the perp sees the gun, drops the knife and halts immediately and puts his hands up. You're standing with your gun on him, hopefully you don't shoot but freaked out of your mind hold your gun steady on him. Now you could do one of two things: you tell him to run and wash your hands of future problems by doing it. I wouldn't feel too ethical releasing a would-be knife killer back into my community. I doubt you all would. So we'd have the guy lying prone, arms and legs spread, kneeling with hands on head etc.

    Now 911. Sure, you dial while rehearsing that you'll give brief account and that you have a legal gun in your hands and give a descriotio ---- WHAM! - let's say before you touch the last digit sirens are all over the place and the first squad cars screech around the corner 100' away. A neighbor called it in. Police see a figure in the dark with a gun pointed at a helpless man on the ground. Guess what they will do in 4 seconds?

    Now the standard advice is "when police arrive have your weapon OUT OF YOUR HAND!!! - and most say - ON THE GROUND AWAY FROM YOU!!!!!"


    OK: Rewind: You are currently standing with a gun pointed at a perp on the ground, cell phone in other hand with "9-" so far dialed and WHAM! "sirens are all over the place and the first squad cars screech around the corner 100' away. They see a figure in the dark with a gun pointed at a helpless man on the ground. Guess what they will do in 4 seconds?"


    4....3.

    What do you do?
    Last edited by detective; March 15th, 2014 at 11:15 AM.


  2. #2
    Member Array KLR2007's Avatar
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    The police are not going to shoot you just for standing there w a gun pointed at someone. They are going to draw weapons on you and start yelling at you like you have never been yelled at before but they are not going to just open fire. I'd say, in your scenario, that they wouldn't even likely come up in a rush at all. You never got the call established and so what would have been the trigger for them to come on scene with lights and sirens to begin with. I know that point is being nit picky but it's your scenario and you asked.

    My advice is similiar to what I've heard in these 'what if' scenarios. If the BG is lying face down and has dropped the weapon, he isn't a threat aymore, relatively speaking. Afterall, there's a bunch of other eyes there now that the police are there. Plus, if he had enough awareness to drop when you presented to him, he's probably going to just lay there til someone picks him up. So,I'd say do what the police are telling you. They're gonna likely tackle you at some point. Remember, just like you said, they don't know yet who is who. You're the threat as far as they know. Get that gun down and away from and hit the pavement if you can.

    Now, if your scenario was different... Like say the BG still had his weapon and was in a position to still harm you, or maybe he had draw on someone else that you were trying to protect, it gets a bit muddier. If you drop\lower your weapon, then you're dead. If you swing around towards the police, you're dead. As I understood the advice I was given, you hold him like you have him and you start yelling back at the police. Tell them who and what you are. Tell them that you would be glad to release your weapon but there's the bad guy. You keep your eyes on your target. Try to give control of the scene to the police as fast as you can, of course. The exact specifics of the scene would dictate how to go about that. At any rate, it will not be an early to bed night for you that night.

    klr (thank goodness all of my ideas about this stuff are just theoretical)

    caveat: it's almost 6AM here and I've not slept well tonight. I reserve the right to correct unintended nuances of my response a a later date. :)
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  3. #3
    KoB
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    Me..I'm not LEO, so playing one (holding suspect until back-up arrives) is not in the cards/plan.

    I carry to protect me and my family...Therefore, once he dropped that knife (I'm also gonna speculate that the BG would've ran when he saw my weapon) threat would've been over.

    But I wouldn't be STUPID and keep holding the weapon as the police arrive...then I increase my odds of getting shot!

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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    From OP: a note: now these types of situations are what I have the question about: how would you pay attention to both imperatives:
    -"PROTECT YOURSELF FROM PERP"
    -"GET RID OF YOUR GUN-IN-HAND BEFORE POLICE ARRIVE!"

    Even if you called 911 with outline of situation + your description, you have no way of knowing if the Police got the transmission or took it in: sirens, theirs and around them, wild adrenaline, screeching tires, a half-heard transmission AND THERE YOU ARE! Their predicament feels just as dicey to them as yours does to you. This is not good.
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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KoB View Post
    Me..I'm not LEO, so playing one (holding suspect until back-up arrives) is not in the cards/plan.

    I carry to protect me and my family...Therefore, once he dropped that knife (I'm also gonna speculate that the BG would've ran when he saw my weapon) threat would've been over.

    But I wouldn't be STUPID and keep holding the weapon as the police arrive...then I increase my odds of getting shot!
    You mean you'd have the guy run away? Just trying to understand what you meant.

    Well, easy to say you wouldn't have your gun in your hand but you, yourself, would have to, at least until he ran when told - if that's what you mean. You wouldn't holster your gun, say "RUN!", and go back to your book.
    So, you have the gun in your hand and the police come. Doesn't matter you intended to holster it in 10 seconds after he ran. They're here NOW. What do you do? Say this shouldn't happen like this?

    Well? ............

    *No offense, but just giving the general answer doesn't answer how you do so when IN a "situation".
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    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    Finish punching in 911 and holster my gun before they can get out of their cars. If no time to holster, just lay it on the ground (& maybe the cell phone too). Keep my hands in plain sight and comply with all commands. Say, "Officer, that man assaulted me with that knife lying right over there. I am willing to press charges and will make a statement as soon as I talk to my attorney".

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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLR2007 View Post
    The police are not going to shoot you just for standing there w a gun pointed at someone. They are going to draw weapons on you and start yelling at you like you have never been yelled at before but they are not going to just open fire. I'd say, in your scenario, that they wouldn't even likely come up in a rush at all. You never got the call established and so what would have been the trigger for them to come on scene with lights and sirens to begin with. I know that point is being nit picky but it's your scenario and you asked.

    My advice is similiar to what I've heard in these 'what if' scenarios. If the BG is lying face down and has dropped the weapon, he isn't a threat aymore, relatively speaking. Afterall, there's a bunch of other eyes there now that the police are there. Plus, if he had enough awareness to drop when you presented to him, he's probably going to just lay there til someone picks him up. So,I'd say do what the police are telling you. They're gonna likely tackle you at some point. Remember, just like you said, they don't know yet who is who. You're the threat as far as they know. Get that gun down and away from and hit the pavement if you can.

    Now, if your scenario was different... Like say the BG still had his weapon and was in a position to still harm you, or maybe he had draw on someone else that you were trying to protect, it gets a bit muddier. If you drop\lower your weapon, then you're dead. If you swing around towards the police, you're dead. As I understood the advice I was given, you hold him like you have him and you start yelling back at the police. Tell them who and what you are. Tell them that you would be glad to release your weapon but there's the bad guy. You keep your eyes on your target. Try to give control of the scene to the police as fast as you can, of course. The exact specifics of the scene would dictate how to go about that. At any rate, it will not be an early to bed night for you that night.

    klr (thank goodness all of my ideas about this stuff are just theoretical)

    caveat: it's almost 6AM here and I've not slept well tonight. I reserve the right to correct unintended nuances of my response a a later date. :)
    I mentioned a neighbor called it in. Could be anything in a situation: Poice car pulled up at a light around the corner with the windows open hear shouting and you yelling orders to the guy. They hit it the short distance to you while calling in backup. Or you fired and missed and THAT'S what stops the guy and has his hands up like a rocket - in which case the Police at the light hear a shot.

    And I know the Police may have the protocol not to shoot me (on the other hand, if they believe I'M the Perp and about to fire they also have the protocol to save a life).
    But the man was also not supposed to be attacking me. He wasn't SUPPOSED to have THAT protocol.

    He did.

    The Police do too - frequently in the middle of something, when they should and when they shouldn't. If it's the latter with you your family wins a lawsuit for "wrongful death". So OK with you if you're right and they're wrong and they do shoot?
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    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm making something out of nothing but I believe the range is not the street and the "way it's supposed to be" frequently isn't the way it is, and it's best to to mentally prepare for the unexpected by thinking things through when you can.

    And I don't think the general advice of "get your gun on the ground before the Police come" addresses a lot of situations where it could be, "Right, fully agree, but HOW in THIS situation do I do that exactly and COULD YOU ANSWER VERY QUICKLY?"...... "HELLO?".......

    Dunno, maybe it isn't really a problem. Just something I've thought about...
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Maybe I'm making something out of nothing but I believe the range is not the street and the "way it's supposed to be" frequently isn't the way it is, and it's best to to mentally prepare for the unexpected by thinking things through when you can.

    And I don't think the general advice of "get your gun on the ground before the Police come" addresses a lot of situations where it could be, "Right, fully agree, but HOW in THIS situation do I do that exactly and COULD YOU ANSWER VERY QUICKLY?"...... "HELLO?".......

    Dunno, maybe it isn't really a problem. Just something I've thought about...
    Hopefully, the adrenaline dump you are experiencing won't affect your ability to hear the officers' commands and follow them to the letter. While this probably your first rodeo, the police have been here before.
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    Senior Member Array KBSR's Avatar
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    In your scenario, I'd prone BG out, and then I'd get off the X, meaning I'd move to a position where he could not see me without moving, and I would then reholster, while continuing to talk to him, with my command presence making it absolutely clear that he would continue to obey my commands if he wanted to survive long enough to tell his story in court. He doesn't know you're holstered, and when the cops arrive, raise your empty hands high over your head, loudly stating the situation to the arriving officers. They'll get it. You may get proned out as well, and disarmed temporarily, but that's all good. Follow the officers instructions immediately and exactly. If they somehow arrived before you holstered, I'd would immediately place the pistol on the ground and take two-three steps back, and then do as further stated.
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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Dunno, maybe it isn't really a problem. Just something I've thought about...
    Not a problem. Never yet heard of a case where a legal defender was shot by accident in this sort of scenario. Probably because in the rare cases this happens, it tends to look exactly like what it is, and not like what it isn't.

    Second, if you do get lucky and get the perp proned out, then you can put your knee on the back of the perp's neck and put him in a wrist lock or arm bar or similar and there's no need to be pointing a gun at him when LEO arrive. But, if your scenario has that happening, don't worry - they won't shoot you on sight. They'll be yelling and stuff. But this is over-thinking the matter.
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    Member Array BobbyLee's Avatar
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    I wear a bluetooth ear bud (on my left ear) and use Siri to dial 911, reholster and stay on line with the 911 operator until help arrives.
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    OK, I'm sorry I will be flamed for this answer but I find so many things wrong. First, there are many fine LEOs doing a thankless job but I am not going to put my life in the hands of one I don't know when he comes across me standing over a prone figure. There are too many new, poorly trained and anxious LEOs. The criminal drops his knife while ******* his pants I reholster and walk away. Arresting one more knife welding thug who will be out in a hour and never charged is not worth it. I don't need to talk to him in a "command presence", get off an "X", put my knee in his back, wrist lock, arm bars, IMO that is taking unnecessary chances and sounds like you have been reading too many tactical journals.

    I carry to keep myself and my family safe. Perhaps if I saw a violent crime taking place, rape or mall shooter I may choose to intervene but again knife wielding subject accosts me, I draw weapon, he drops knife in fear, and I let him run. For me that is all I'm looking for. I don't carry to be a hero. Those days are gone.
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    VIP Member Array maxwell97's Avatar
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    When the first car comes to a stop, I would drop the gun and put my hands up.
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    Hopefully the peace officer will have enough training and experience not to shoot ! Following the commands afterwards ! Give your statement with the presences of an attorney !
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