Got pulled over the other day - Page 3

Got pulled over the other day

This is a discussion on Got pulled over the other day within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Why does post count, age, or when I received my CHP make a difference? It doesn't mean I don't do my research. You are stuck ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array garn's Avatar
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    Why does post count, age, or when I received my CHP make a difference? It doesn't mean I don't do my research. You are stuck so you resort to a false sense of superiority? Slick, but **** doesn't fly.

    Back up your claims.

    I will have my CHP for quite a long time, thanks for the meaningless judgment though.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I guess I'll have better luck explaining search and seizure law to a bri... well never mind...

    Your fourth party information is wrong, plain and simple. Look into it for yourself.



    For those who wonder why I am being so harsh on this, I direct you to this thread...

    http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...ad.php?t=19283

    Notice the post dates.

    Enjoy your CHP, it wont last long.


  2. #32
    Member Array garn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chorizo View Post
    Sixto, that is a little harsh. The lad is trying to learn and by posting here and expressing his opinions, we old dogs might be able to teach him something. Garn, I don't recommend getting into a constitutional discussion with a LE over weapons on the street. If he wants it, let him take the weapon. If you want you can take it up with his supervisors and the department LATER.

    You will NOT win that discussion on the street so don't even go there.
    I don't think I would argue with a cop over this situation if asked to hand over my firearm. Obviously it would only make the situation worse for me, even if he IS wrong. Maybe he just wants to check out my handgund, lol.

    I'm just saying legally, LEO's should not do this.

  3. #33
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    I ain't no moderator, but let's tone it down. Garn, legally, in your interpretation, they may not be able to do it. In practicality and day to day LEO procedures, I would listen to SIXTO. His LE experience could give you years of age just by reading. You are old enough to carry and can make your own decisions. And by the way, old age doesn't mean good judgement, I just think we old guys see more bad judgement in the young. There are just less people our age with bad judgement because of the natural selection process. Life does have away of sorting them out after 50 plus years.
    21 years and 21 days, United States Marine Corps & NRA Life Member since 1972

    "The trouble is with the increasingly widespread problem of idiots prancing around out there confusing their opinions with actual facts." peckman28

  4. #34
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    No, I'm hardly stuck... anyone who has been around this board knows that...

    The reason I am harsh on this, like poor training, poor information can and will get you hurt or killed. The only thing you have cited is fourth party information, I am just suggesting you look into this for yourself.

    The fourth amendment deals with search and seizure, this is neither.
    Under the federal mandates, you have no "RIGHT" to CCW. Just like you have no "RIGHT" to drive a car on public streets. The fact that you have to get a permit makes it a privilage. ( I dont think that its right, but thats they way it is)

    If you are stopped for a lawful reason, you are being detained. You have to give up your weapon if told to do so.
    Last edited by SIXTO; January 10th, 2007 at 01:36 PM.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    You can go on all day long with opinions but without posting official published information it means little to prove your point.
    I myself have been in the shoes of a LEO and there is nothing more edgey than walking up on a unknown vehicle with occupants inside, especially at night and with dark tinted windows. 99% of the time everything goes well, but the moment you become complaciant is when you will get bit. It is for this reason that if I am pulled over, I make no movements whatsoever. My window is rolled down and my hands are on the wheel at 12 O'clock, if it is dark I may have the overhead light on. As soon as the officer approaches I inform him that I have a concealed weapon and I have a valid permit and I will obey all his commands. I have only had to do this once and the officer thanked me, but still gave me a ticket. Wether or not you are legally suppose to diclose this fact it is always a good idea to do so, no exceptions!! But yourself in the shoes of the LEO you may feel different.
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

  6. #36
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    There is much confusion by many over rights and privileges. As Sixto says, a right is something that you usually (I say that because of ongoing discussions on voting and some states requirements to have a license to own a weapon) don't have to get a license for, a privilege usually requires that you meet some type of standard and must have a permit to do and can be revoked by an authority.

    Bad training = bad decisions, I agree. But then again, learning is what this board is about, so best said here than practiced on the street.
    21 years and 21 days, United States Marine Corps & NRA Life Member since 1972

    "The trouble is with the increasingly widespread problem of idiots prancing around out there confusing their opinions with actual facts." peckman28

  7. #37
    Member Array garn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    No, I'm hardly stuck... anyone who has been around this board knows that...

    The reason I am harsh on this, like poor training, poor information can and will get you hurt or killed. The only thing you have cited is fourth party information, I am just suggesting you look into this for yourself.

    The fourth amendment deals with search and seizure, this is neither.
    Under the federal mandates, you have no "RIGHT" to CCW. Just like you have no "RIGHT" to drive a car on public streets. The fact that you have to get a permit makes it a privilage. ( I dont think that its right, but thats they way it is)

    If you are stopped for a lawful reason, you are being detained. You have to give up your weapon if told to do so.
    The 4th amendment deals with property as well, my firearm is my property, if taken from me, that is seizure. You cannot do this without just cause.

  8. #38
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    This could go on ad infinitum!!

    Play it cool folks so we don't get into needing Nomex garments ........ or have to close the thread.

    If needed, take major disputes to PM.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  9. #39
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    I ride my motorcycle on rural twisty Rocky Mountain roads on a regular basis. We could say I ride, well, fast... it is a passion I have that I am willing sacrifice my driving record for. I have been pulled over 4 times with a firearm on me:
    One cop asked me to hand him my weapon, we then proceeded to shoot the breeze about firearms and he let me off with a warning.

    The second time I was cuffed, frisked, and then belittled for loading my firearm with JHP's. He then gave me a ticket.

    The third just wanted to know where I was carrying it, he then let me off with a warning.

    The fourth guy was a douche bag. I did not disclose the fact that I was armed. He pulled me over 'cause the bike looks fast' (I wasn't speeding), and he did not even run my record after looking at my DL. I think he was hoping I was gonna run from him.
    Dave

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  10. #40
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    It can not be done without probable cause, not just cause. If you are no longer free to leave (i.e. at a traffic stop for a violation), you are being detained (albeit for a short time), even though there is no actual "arrest". Your firearm is your property, but if the officer feels that for public safety or some other reason it should be removed from your person, he can and will do so. Arguing Constitutionality with him isn't going to do you any good. Is just having a firearm and liscense to carry it probable cause? No, but if he knows you have it (from say duty to inform or it tied to your DL), and you are nervous, or some other mental state (you know, because you just got pulled over), he could have probable cause to take temporary control of your weapon.

    Nobody on this forum is gonna hold age or post count against you. However, the purpose of it is to learn, and if your information is not accurate, it will be corrected.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  11. #41
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    Looooong sigh.... Okay, we’ll play who knows more...

    Here is some reading for you... Terry vs. Ohio, Mapp vs. Ohio, Katz vs. U.S. There are others, but I don't want to overwhelm you.

    Here is a definition of seizure as written in every law professor’s library;

    A SEIZURE is by definition the deprivation of liberty, or the enjoyment in exercising dominion or control over a thing, be it property or person. Police can temporarily seize private property for about 14 days (this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction), and usually hold it indefinitely if it is material evidence in a criminal case. Temporary seizure or detention of a person is allowed for shorter periods of time, usually 72 hours.

    Now go read Chambers vs. Morony, Chimel vs. California. Do some brushing up on the Miranda rule too.

    Here is a link that spells it out in plain English for your reading enjoyment;

    http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/frisk.htm

    Oh yeah, I forgot to add, Welcome to CC, you can learn a lot here. Just don't poke the bears.

  12. #42
    Member Array garn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Footslogger View Post
    I ride my motorcycle on rural twisty Rocky Mountain roads on a regular basis. We could say I ride, well, fast... it is a passion I have that I am willing sacrifice my driving record for. I have been pulled over 4 times with a firearm on me:
    One cop asked me to hand him my weapon, we then proceeded to shoot the breeze about firearms and he let me off with a warning.

    The second time I was cuffed, frisked, and then belittled for loading my firearm with JHP's. He then gave me a ticket.

    The third just wanted to know where I was carrying it, he then let me off with a warning.

    The fourth guy was a douche bag. I did not disclose the fact that I was armed. He pulled me over 'cause the bike looks fast' (I wasn't speeding), and he did not even run my record after looking at my DL. I think he was hoping I was gonna run from him.
    Hey fellow rider, what do you ride? Man, you have been through some stuff huh!? LOL at the LEO harassing you over carrying JHP's..

    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye07 View Post
    It can not be done without probable cause, not just cause. If you are no longer free to leave (i.e. at a traffic stop for a violation), you are being detained (albeit for a short time), even though there is no actual "arrest". Your firearm is your property, but if the officer feels that for public safety or some other reason it should be removed from your person, he can and will do so. Arguing Constitutionality with him isn't going to do you any good. Is just having a firearm and liscense to carry it probable cause? No, but if he knows you have it (from say duty to inform or it tied to your DL), and you are nervous, or some other mental state (you know, because you just got pulled over), he could have probable cause to take temporary control of your weapon.

    Nobody on this forum is gonna hold age or post count against you. However, the purpose of it is to learn, and if your information is not accurate, it will be corrected.
    Thats exactly what I have been saying, but in more detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Looooong sigh.... Okay, we’ll play who knows more...
    It's not a matter of who knows more, a competition, or an ego trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Here is a definition of seizure as written in every law professor’s library;

    A SEIZURE is by definition the deprivation of liberty, or the enjoyment in exercising dominion or control over a thing, be it property or person. Police can temporarily seize private property for about 14 days (this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction), and usually hold it indefinitely if it is material evidence in a criminal case. Temporary seizure or detention of a person is allowed for shorter periods of time, usually 72 hours.
    That seems to coincide exactly with what I have said. By taking my firearm (my property), you have taken (my property) out of my control. There has to be a good cause for this. I don't think most cases where a CHP holder who announces the fact that they are armed, would include such a cause to warrant the request of the CHP holder to surrender their firearm. Of course this is at the discretion of the LEO, for the time being, possibly a judge later if you really piss off someone.


    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Oh yeah, I forgot to add, Welcome to CC, you can learn a lot here. Just don't poke the bears.
    Ego much? :D


    I will read up on your cases as well.

  13. #43
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    Ego has nothing to do with it, as this is not personal. I'm just laying out the facts, and trying to help you avoid a bad encounter.

    I'll be waiting for facts to back up your side of the argument.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  14. #44
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    LEO's have no right to disarm (take your gun) you or request your gun/etc under these conditions.
    That is not the same as what I said. I said that under the set conditions, of a traffic stop for a violation, the officer does have a right to to temporary custody of your weapon with probable cause. Probable cause (its not good cause or anything like that, it is a specific legal term, referring to the 4th Amendment) is a very subjective thing, and not very easy for an officer to establish. You have already broken the law (although just a traffic violation), and you probably are acting kind of nervous. That is all the officer needs for probable cause, especially if he knows that you have a weapon.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

  15. #45
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    Texas law is pretty straight up on how this works. If you are carrying and a LEO requests identity, you must disclose your Permit and inform the LEO of your weapon. It is at the LEO's discretion to disarm the permittee if the LEO feels he/you/bystanders are in "danger" After the LEO discharges his official duties he will return your weapon.
    I have been stopped several times and followed the sage advice to turn on the dome light, open the window and keep my hands on the steering wheel. If the gun is near my wallet, I try and get the wallet out (using simple and slow movements) before the officer approaches. I keep my insurance papers in a separate packet, NOT in my glove box.

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