Got pulled over the other day

This is a discussion on Got pulled over the other day within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by buckeye07 That is not the same as what I said. I said that under the set conditions, of a traffic stop for ...

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Thread: Got pulled over the other day

  1. #46
    Member Array garn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye07 View Post
    That is not the same as what I said. I said that under the set conditions, of a traffic stop for a violation, the officer does have a right to to temporary custody of your weapon with probable cause. Probable cause (its not good cause or anything like that, it is a specific legal term, referring to the 4th Amendment) is a very subjective thing, and not very easy for an officer to establish. You have already broken the law (although just a traffic violation), and you probably are acting kind of nervous. That is all the officer needs for probable cause, especially if he knows that you have a weapon.
    I still say it is the same thing, probable cause, which is what I was talking about when I said "cause" is subjective like you said, and I was making that statement from my subjective point of view, which I thought was rather conservative (not disarming someone for no registration, being a CHP holder etc etc).
    Last edited by garn; January 10th, 2007 at 03:34 PM.

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  3. #47
    Member Array garn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Ego has nothing to do with it, as this is not personal. I'm just laying out the facts, and trying to help you avoid a bad encounter.

    I'll be waiting for facts to back up your side of the argument.
    I thought I already did with my response above and the 4th amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by garn
    That seems to coincide exactly with what I have said. By taking my firearm (my property), you have taken (my property) out of my control. There has to be a good cause for this. I don't think most cases where a CHP holder who announces the fact that they are armed, would include such a cause to warrant the request of the CHP holder to surrender their firearm. Of course this is at the discretion of the LEO, for the time being, possibly a judge later if you really piss off someone.
    Do you disagree with my statement?

  4. #48
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    Just another tip when reading about legal issues... every word has a meaning, there is no fluff like a fictional book would have. You have to read he wole document to understand the meaning, not just skim it for the main points.
    Good luck, let me know if I can provide any more links or case law you would like to see.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by aepilotjim View Post
    Not to hijack the thread, but I'm gonna hijack it. I carry a full size 1911 at 3:30 - 4:00. My ID holder is in my right back pocket. If I should get pulled over, should I get my wallet out and in sight before he approaches, or should I wait, inform him where my wallet is and where my handgun is and ask him how to proceed? Which is the best way?
    Since I started to carry I moved my wallet to my left rear since I carry at 3:30. Easier that way when buying things et.
    Don't be a fool and die for your country. Let the other sonofabitch die for his.

    George S. Patton

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by garn View Post
    I thought I already did with my response above and the 4th amendment



    Do you disagree with my statement?

    It clear that you have only basic knowledge of the 4th amendment. In addition to the face value, there is tons of case law that take specific senarios into account. Those one I suggested you read are the main ones for the subject at hand.

    Yes, I do disagree with your statement. See the quoted definition, and read the case law, see my above post.
    Lets clear something up now, before we go further. I am very pro 2A. I personally won't take anyones firearm away from them unless there is other issues that dictate the need to. BUT, that is just me.
    I do get a little harsh and direct when a young guy has been taught wrong, that is setting him up for failure. It gets my blood boiling to here that "my NRA instructor said this and that", because thats what some nameless lawyer told him 25 years ago in a bar. Standards should be much higher than that.
    garn, this is not a personal debate, so no ego is involved. There is also no opinion involved, it is what it is. I am trying to show you how to correct a flaw in your training, so you dont get yourself hurt.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #51
    Member Array garn's Avatar
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    First hand, I just skimmed over the summaries of what I found on these. If I missed something critical, oops..

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Terry vs. Ohio, Mapp vs. Ohio, Katz vs. U.S.
    Terry vs. Ohio - The LEO had probable cause imo because of very suspicious activity and good judgment.

    Mapp vs. Ohio - "Even so, the evidence collected illegally was presented during the case." See that word illegally? No matter how it was ruled, you and I both know it was wrong.

    Katz vs. US - I don't see much here, don't know if they suspected something the guy shouldnt be doing, and tapped the phone accordingly, or if they tapped the phone and then stumbled upon his conversation. What I read wasnt clear. I agree with the outcome.

  8. #52
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    and the probable cause in our case here is the registration violation...
    The evidence collection is not at issue here. Mapp vs. Ohio sets the ground rules for search and evidence collection. I included it for this reason.

    Again, you got to read the entire thing if your going to undestand this.

    As for the others, your or my opinion doesnt matter. Its black and white issue a fact is a fact.

    Let me know when you read all of terry v ohio.
    Last edited by SIXTO; January 10th, 2007 at 04:26 PM.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #53
    Member Array stoneypete's Avatar
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    I've only been pulled over once while armed. I kept both hands on my steering wheel till the state trooper approached. When he did I said, "Officer I have a license to carry a firearm and I feel it is my duty to inform you I have a loaded firearm in the vehicle." I had just picked up my first Colt and was bringing it home.

    He asked me to step out of the vehicle and he put it under the seat. The firearm was a non-issue from that point on.

    I have never been on the business side of a firearm. I never want to be either. I will alway declare at a traffic stop. A missunderstanding could get ugly fast.
    'The assailant chooses the time, location and method of attack.

    Since they are unlikely to let you know ahead of time when, where and how violent they're going to be, you should always be prepared.' - matiki

  10. #54
    Distinguished Member Array BIG E's Avatar
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    Boy this thread tooka turn didn't it?

    Some one else in another post said it better, but my main concern when pulled over is to put the officer at ease. I would not want to be the one walking up on a dark car.

    Telling the officer that you are CC and armed just puts everything on the table and out front. "Hey here I am, this is what I have, how would you like to proceed?"

    As I posted I feel that this is just being polite. It's not flashing your CCW and hoping to get out of the ticket. That just happened to be the case here... I would not expect it next time.

    Weather it is legal or not for me to disclose that I am armed doesn't matter to me. I treat people the way I would want to be treated.

    Arguing and challenging just gets started off on the wrong foot.
    Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft!

    -- Theodore Roosevelt --

  11. #55
    Member Array Nate's Avatar
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    Some good information here, for a similar (albeit slightly different) circumstance - officers disarming fellow officers: http://forums.officer.com/forums/sho...2&page=1&pp=25

  12. #56
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    I seen there is even disagreement amongst the Men in Blue. Good link.
    Semper fi.
    21 years and 21 days, United States Marine Corps & NRA Life Member since 1972

    "The trouble is with the increasingly widespread problem of idiots prancing around out there confusing their opinions with actual facts." peckman28

  13. #57
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    That is a good link, but the circumstances in that thread are a lot different.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  14. #58
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    I have to chuckle. After 20 years plus working the job (street, det and fed) this kills me. Anytime I stop a person on a traffic stop and am aware of any weapons, I am authorized to secure such weapon in the manner I (the stopping officer) see fit. Even as an off duty LEO and on duty LEO can (very stupid act if they do) and have to people in the past secure weapons. You can scream 4th 1st or what ever right you want to, at that time and place (ie traffic stop or a call into your house) officer safety takes presidence. Yes even if an officer responds to your residence for a complaint that legally allows them to enter your residence, they can (and do) secure weapons on the premisis. Argue it on the street and you might (very unlikely) win in court but after you've been charged with crimes, booked and legal fees that cost as much as the vehicle your driving (or more).

    Not attacking any person, but I promiss you (having worked in VA before) if an officer ask for you to surrender your weapon and you refuse (ie become a constitutional expert) you will immediatly go from a CCL holder during a traffic stop to an armed and dangerous person and treated as such.

    Off the box and back to my cage.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

  15. #59
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    Steve - whatever anyone chooses to think - your points are what I regard as the norm - and I ain't gonna go challenging any of that if I am stopped

    Best IMO if others take the path of sensibility.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  16. #60
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    I would love to know who CHL instructor is that passes this garbage on as fact. His instructor status should be pulled asap.
    Last edited by SIXTO; January 11th, 2007 at 09:49 PM.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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