Did I break the law?

This is a discussion on Did I break the law? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yesterday I made a trip to the local shopping mall. I entered through the JcPenny store, where there were no signs that prohibited firearms. I ...

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Thread: Did I break the law?

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    New Member Array JSkin's Avatar
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    Did I break the law?

    Yesterday I made a trip to the local shopping mall. I entered through the JcPenny store, where there were no signs that prohibited firearms. I walked through the store and out into the mall area. After shopping I excited through the main mall entrance, which had a no guns sign on the door.

    Did I break the law by carrying in the mall?

    After I saw this sign I drove around the rest of the mall. The only door that was posted was the main entrance, no stores that had outside entry had signs up.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Two questions (which applies to any state):

    1. Does your state hold that signs carry the full force of law, or are they only statements of preferences by the facility owner?

    2. Do your state's statutes require you to go hunting around for such signs/notices, or does any sign anywhere constitute sufficient notice?

    Depends on what your state requires.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    If you're in Illinois, I'm betting you did. They were compelled by court order to allow citizens to carry concealed. They were NOT compelled, however, to make that inalienable right either clear, consistent or easily followed. Right now, the interpretation is a tangled rat's nest, even to the best legal experts in the Land of Lincoln. Good Luck Brother.
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    From Handgunlaw.us

    Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
    “Yes
    Section 70. Violations.
    (e)
    Except as otherwise provided, a license
    e in violation
    of this Act shall be guilty of a Class B misdemeanor.
    A second or subsequent violation is a Class A misdemeanor. The
    Department may suspend a license for up to 6 months for a
    second violation and shall permanently revoke a license for 3or more violations of Section 865 of this Act. Any person
    convicted of a violation under this Section shall pay a $150
    fee to be deposited into the Mental Health Reporting Fund,
    plus any applicable court costs or fees.
    (f) A licensee convicted or found guilty of a violation of
    this Act who has a valid license and is otherwise eligible to
    carry a concealed firearm shall only be subject to the
    penalties under this Section and shall not be
    subject to the
    penalties under Section 21-6, paragraph (4), (8), or (10) of
    subsection (a) of Section 24-1, or
    subparagraph (A
    -
    5) or (B
    -
    5)
    of paragraph (3) of subsection (a) of Section 24
    -
    1.6 of the
    Criminal Code of
    2012. Except as otherwise provided in this
    subsection, nothing in this subsection prohibits the licensee
    from being subjected to penalties for violations other than
    those specified in this Act.
    Section 65 (d)
    Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously
    posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property specified in this Section as a prohibited area,
    unless the building or premises is a private residence. Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the
    Department and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size. The Department shall adopt rules for standardized signs
    to be used under this subsection.
    Section 1231.150 Administrative Rules
    Section 65
    of the Act specifies areas where concealed carry of firearms is prohibited and requires
    posting of
    those areas.
    (a)
    A template for signs required pursuant to
    Section 65(d) of the Act is provided in
    Appendix A and is
    available on the Department's website.
    (b)
    Owners of prohibited areas may utilize signage larger in size than the template
    provided, at their discretion. If prohibited areas use a larger sign, the template
    provided shall be reproduced somewhere on the
    larger sign no smaller than the 4"
    x 6" dimension required by the Act.
    (c)
    Prohibited areas may include additional language on their signs. If prohibited
    areas include additional
    language, the template provided shall be reproduced
    somewhere on the larger sign no smaller than the 4" x
    6" dimension required by the Act.
    (d)
    The required signs shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of the
    building, premises or
    real property. The sign shall provide persons entering the
    property notice that they are entering a prohibited
    area in which, pursuant to the
    Act, they shall not carry a concealed firearm.
    “Handgunlaw.us highly recommends that you not enter a place that is posted "No Firearms" no
    matter what the state laws read/mean on signage. We recommend you print out the
    No Guns = No Money Cards
    and give one to the owner of the establishment that
    has the signage." As responsible gun owners and upholders of
    the 2nd Amendment we should also honor the rights of property owners to control their own property even if
    we disagree with them.”
    Illinois State Police Approved Signage for No Gun Signs
    Pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act, signs must be of a uniform design and the
    Illinois State Police is responsible for adopting rules for standardized signs. The Illinois State Police has
    proposed rules which require a white background; no text (except the reference to the Illinois Code 430 ILCS
    66/1) or marking within the one-inch area surrounding the graphic design; a depiction of a handgun in black
    ink with a circle around and diagonal slash across the firearm in red ink; and that the circle be 4 inches in
    diameter. The sign in its entirety will measure 4 inches x 6 inches. Click
    Here
    to view the
    approved
    sign
    ag

    http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/illinois.pdf
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    Without legal No-Guns signs at every entrance, that would be tough to uphold. You might check and see if they have them posted at the entrances of the mall parking areas though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSkin View Post
    Yesterday I made a trip to the local shopping mall. I entered through the JcPenny store, where there were no signs that prohibited firearms. I walked through the store and out into the mall area. After shopping I excited through the main mall entrance, which had a no guns sign on the door.

    Did I break the law by carrying in the mall?

    After I saw this sign I drove around the rest of the mall. The only door that was posted was the main entrance, no stores that had outside entry had signs up.
    The answer is very dependent on the exact wording of the state's statute, and sometimes case law or an AG's opinion.

    We have a mall here with the same situation. THey have a screwy almost but not quite legal 30.06 and 30.05 sign on the main entrances
    but no signs on the individual stores. In the past we have had some pretty interesting discussion about the precise meaning and requirements of the TX 30.06 sign. Look up posts by former participant here "Snub." I thought I knew the law, until that one very long thread, and I thought
    the signage had to be at each entrance to give proper notice. Digging into and parsing every word of the law it is no longer clear.

    Again, it really is state dependent, and in some cases you may never ever get a clear cut answer until something goes bad.
    PM likes this.
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    Member Array siucoz's Avatar
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    IL signs do have the force of law, but if "your" entrance wasn't posted then......who knows. I'd hate to be in a Chicago mall and find out the hard way
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcoslow View Post
    IL signs do have the force of law, but if "your" entrance wasn't posted then......who knows. I'd hate to be in a Chicago mall and find out the hard way
    And that's part of the problem with the first couple years' worth of new CHL statutes. Until the case law exists, it's hard to know for certain unless the statutes are crystal clear. And precious few states have statutes that are flawlessly clear in this regard.


    OP, given the lack of case law, you might want to run the questions by a competent attorney. Of course, given the newness of the statutes, answers might be a bit vague right now.
    19Kvet likes this.
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    New Member Array JSkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    And that's part of the problem with the first couple years' worth of new CHL statutes. Until the case law exists, it's hard to know for certain unless the statutes are crystal clear. And precious few states have statutes that are flawlessly clear in this regard.


    OP, given the lack of case law, you might want to run the questions by a competent attorney. Of course, given the newness of the statutes, answers might be a bit vague right now.
    Running it by an attorney is on my list of things to do today. I am doing my best to read and understand these new laws, because I do not want to be the "case law"
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSkin View Post
    Yesterday I made a trip to the local shopping mall. I entered through the JcPenny store, where there were no signs that prohibited firearms. I walked through the store and out into the mall area. After shopping I excited through the main mall entrance, which had a no guns sign on the door.

    Did I break the law by carrying in the mall?

    After I saw this sign I drove around the rest of the mall. The only door that was posted was the main entrance, no stores that had outside entry had signs up.
    I assume you had CC and since you were not challenged you were doing it right. The questions I would ask the mall management do they have a store that sells guns in there and how does that work should I buy one. Does that also apply to criminals and if so by definition a criminal would not comply so how do you propose to keep me and my family safe and does that apply to hand grenades or C-3 or 4 or other thing that can go boom. Semper Fi. J.

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    New Member Array JSkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhead80 View Post
    I assume you had CC and since you were not challenged you were doing it right. The questions I would ask the mall management do they have a store that sells guns in there and how does that work should I buy one. Does that also apply to criminals and if so by definition a criminal would not comply so how do you propose to keep me and my family safe and does that apply to hand grenades or C-3 or 4 or other thing that can go boom. Semper Fi. J.
    I guess I should clear that up..... I do have my concealed carry license

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSkin View Post
    Running it by an attorney is on my list of things to do today. I am doing my best to read and understand these new laws, because I do not want to be the "case law"
    Might I suggest that you would be wasting your money. An attorney may not be any better at
    understanding them then you are. Maybe post the exact language here from the statute in your state.

    As I said, even her in TX where the 30.06 law has been on the books for years and years, and where there was at one time an AG opinion that the sign needed to be posted at each entrance,
    it is no longer that crystal clear. I refer you to the thread here, it is TX specific, but will show you how complicated and confusing some these laws are. New (not legal) Sign at Mall in TX
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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    The problem with unclear law is that to make it clear someone has to go through the costly process of a court challenge. Even if you win - financially you lose. If you have deep enough pockets we'd appreciate you taking one for the team
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Without legal No-Guns signs at every entrance, that would be tough to uphold. You might check and see if they have them posted at the entrances of the mall parking areas though.
    Boy this is a tough nut. I found out here at DC malls are typically GFZs. I've seen here at DC many states have particular wording in their carry statutes that apply to *No Gun* signs. IIRC in Texas if a *no gun* sign does not follow the 30.06 law the sign is without merit and don't mean squat. Having said that well.....

    GFZ signs do not carry the force of law in my state. I CC exclusively. Four years ago was the last time I was at a mall to get some scrubs. I don't recall seeing a sign there. Flat out I am NOT walking 40 miles to hunt down a sign in a mall that covers 40 acres. You do what you wanna do.

    CANT means just that.


    Since I never use the main entrance so's I can find my truck when I was ready to leave I would say ask someone here at DC or go take this link and get the up to date lowdown.Handgunlaw.us
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