No modifications ???

No modifications ???

This is a discussion on No modifications ??? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Living in Kansas I just did receive my CCL this month. So I called a very good friend who has carried for years in Arizona ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array DataMax's Avatar
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    No modifications ???

    Living in Kansas I just did receive my CCL this month. So I called a very good friend who has carried for years in Arizona to talk do's and dont's. The first thing he told me was "Do Not make and adds, changes, modifications to any of your CCWs."

    His logic is that if you in fact have to use your firearm one day and you kill the BG, if his family were to file a Wrongful Death civil case against you having used a modified firearm gives their attorney one more thing to use against you.

    As in "Your honor, this guy is such a bad a## that the way the gun came from the factory wasn't good enough for him." "He had to make changes to make the gun even more deadlier!"

    We all know that is not the case ... but the opposing attorney can make it appear that way.

    Opinions?
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  2. #2
    Member Array Smooth23's Avatar
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    I think your Arizona friend is overthinking things just a bit. On a side note, I'm glad in michigan you are protected from a civil suit if its ruled a clean shoot.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    I wouldn't worry about it...

    Quote Originally Posted by DataMax View Post
    His logic is that if you in fact have to use your firearm one day and you kill the BG, if his family were to file a Wrongful Death civil case against you having used a modified firearm gives their attorney one more thing to use against you.
    If the ambulance chasing attorney has to make the point that your aftermarket exotic wood grip panels hastened the BG's death, then his case is so weak that he is grasping at straws anyway.

  4. #4
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    In a suit it will be used against you. So will the fact you were using the caliber you were using, the clothes you were wearing, and the fact that you belong to this forum. However, if you have an attorney worth the money you're paying him you'll be OK. It is easy to show how asinine these arguments are.
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  5. #5
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    No matter what you do you can be seen as an "evil gun person " with your "killing machine". What Caliber do you carry (looks like a .45 on your picture) and what type of rounds?

    If you carry a larger caliber (I would bet more than a 9mm.) they will claim that "you were out to kill Jonny", since you have a "High power" gun, who was "a great kid" and his kindergarden sunday school teacher will say, "he would never have tried to hurt anybody". Do you carry those "deadly Killer hollow point bullets" in your "high powered automatic pistol". If you have a laser sight or night sights they will claim you wanted to see him better because you are a killer.

    I would not worry too much about it because they will find something to try to throw at you, I give them enough just by carrying, let alone the hollowpoints I carry.

    Oh btw when we bought my father's glock for Chistmas it was set up with an NY1 trigger (8lb), because one of the local PDs buys from this location and requires them , the location swapped it for a std 5 lb trigger and the sights were swapped for trijicom night sights. Since then he has added a laser sight. Any of these thigs could be used against him but to get there he has to be alive. Now If they want to use something against him it would probably be that he is carrying 11 .40 caliber "Black Talons ", Best Christmas Present my uncle could have given him.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

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  6. #6
    Member Array DataMax's Avatar
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    Thanks Guys ... I am looking at some (fake) ivory grips with the Grim Reaper etched into them for my 1911PD ... my friend thinks those grips will be sending a message that I do not want to send. Who says that I don't want to send it :)

    BTW ... 45 ACP with 185 gr. Golden Sabers
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  7. #7
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    DataMax, just make sure you're on speaking terms with an attorney that is capable of defending you in a shooting issue. One that understands guns and actually shoots himself is the best option. Then just pray you never have to use his services.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
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  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Data, I think your friend might be right if you are looking to put that on your CCW. Just because no one else will see it unless you have to shoot it, everyone is going to see it if you do.

    They might be a fun novelty item to put on a firearm you take to the range..... buuuuuuut you may want to reconsidor that little bit.
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    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

  9. #9
    Member Array DataMax's Avatar
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    I hear you Six ... they are pretty cool looking though.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Array jofrdo's Avatar
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    Author Massad Ayoob has published recent gun magazine articles advising against all single action triggers and any trigger jobs that lighten the trigger force compared with what came from the factory. His stock in trade is giving case histories to prove his point and he's got plenty dealing with justified shootings by LEO's and citizens. A good prosecuter can paint you as carrying a gun with a hairtrigger that you used recklessly.

    He also advises against carrying a gun who's model name implies aggressiveness toward its owner (your grips may fall into that camp).

    Lastly, although he's a proponent of self-loaded cartridges for practice economy or to get good performance at shooting competitions, he advises to always use factory loads for street carry so that you can't be accused in court or using "hot" loads to make killing easier or more likely. He recommends that you select a caliber that is commonly used by police forces, i.e., not .454 Casull for CCW.

  11. #11
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    Ayoob does believe all of those things. And while there is some validity to the claims, I belive he blows things way out of proportion. The other side will make all the claims he says they will make. However, a trained attorney on your side will easily combat most of these claims. When you get down to it, if you were justified in applying deadly force, you are justified to do it with any tool available to you.

    The only one of these that I take to be a basic truth is that carrying hand loaded ammo is a bad idea. Just because they can argue that you loaded it in some odd way and there is no way to prove you didn't.

    Single action triggers, mean sounding names, or grips with a picture on them do not alter the basic fact. You applied deadly force. If the use was justified, you don't need to worry about the rest. You just have to be able to explain why the lawyer on the other side is a moron.
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  12. #12
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    Ayoob does believe all of those things. And while there is some validity to the claims, I belive he blows things way out of proportion.
    I agree. Ayoob does go "over the top" sometimes. He has stated in print that the use of smooth (non-checkered or stippled) stocks can be used against a person in court because it can imply a shooter's inability to properly grip (and thus control) a firearm.


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  13. #13
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    I advise against handloads based on reliability, but if you can't prove how you loaded them, neither can they. Remember, they have to PROVE you did something unusual, not merely make the assertion.

    Ayoob makes some good points which should be considered, but as others have said he sometimes takes it a bit too far. If you're more concerned about winning the court case AFTER the fight, than winning the fight itself you'd do best not carry a firearm at all... then there will be no court case to worry about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    The only one of these that I take to be a basic truth is that carrying hand loaded ammo is a bad idea. Just because they can argue that you loaded it in some odd way and there is no way to prove you didn't.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
    I advise against handloads based on reliability, but if you can't prove how you loaded them, neither can they. Remember, they have to PROVE you did something unusual, not merely make the assertion.
    That is much less true than it should be. Especially in a civil court.
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  15. #15
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    I know the exact grips that you're talking about.

    Just my opinion that I would not go with the Grim Reaper grips on a self~defense firearm.

    Put them on your range gun if you like that much.

    There is a huge perceptual difference between adding a long trigger or a custom grip safety and Grim Reaper or Deaths Head type grips.

    Just my not so humble opinion but, (of course) do what you want.
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