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Gun v knife (is 21 feet adequate?)

5K views 29 replies 19 participants last post by  rfurtkamp 
#1 · (Edited)
#2 ·
I've seen this debated for over 20 years.

The truth of the matter is that if you're wandering around in condition white, I can pick you out of a crowd from a block away and jump you.

If you have the unfortunate luck of trying to attack my friends (particularly those with an IPSC background) who are aware of changing circumstances and watch people and events closely, well then, you'll be shot as you make the first step of your attack.

I've come to the decision, which is old I realize, that it ain't the hardware, it's the man. When you are close enough to see him, he can see you. Make sure any ambush has an escape route. Don't buy your advice on defense from an ad in a gun magazine, and practice, practice, practice.

Trust me, broken bones are a pain in the whazoo.
 
#3 ·
The Tourist said:
I've seen this debated for over 20 years.

The truth of the matter is that if you're wandering around in condition white, I can pick you out of a crowd from a block away and jump you.

If you have the unfortunate luck of trying to attack my friends (particularly those with an IPSC background) who are aware of changing circumstances and watch people and events closely, well then, you'll be shot as you make the first step of your attack.

I've come to the decision, which is old I realize, that it ain't the hardware, it's the man. When you are close enough to see him, he can see you. Make sure any ambush has an escape route. Don't buy your advice on defense from an ad in a gun magazine, and practice, practice, practice.

Trust me, broken bones are a pain in the whazoo.
In my opinion you have missed the point of the article.
Even if you are able to draw and shoot the BG with the knife, he is still going to cut you by way of his momentum. Even if you are able to shoot him it will take several seconds (Up to 15 to 30 seconds) for your shot(s) to incapacitate him.
You have to move out of his path and deflect the momentum of his attack.
His attack will come when he IS only a step away from you and as stated in the article, no one survives this kind of "close encounter."
Staying aware and in "Condition Orange" will help you to avoid getting cut, but it may not stop it from happening.
The best choice as the article states is to deflect the momentum away from you, in the opposite direction, then initiate the use of your firearm.

All of the people in this "test" were aware an attack was imminent and still they lost. On the street as a civilian carrying a CCW you won't have that advantage. Unless you have been trained for a "conditioned response" through years of training and conditioning you are going to lose, because the BG's aren't going to be courteous enough to announce their intentions until they are ready to attack and they have the advantage.

But you are right on one point in particular. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.
 
#4 ·
We had a case in CCW class whre a officer talked about shooting a guy with a knife and still getting stabbed by the momentum..

They were dealing with another criminal when this guy screams at up and starts running witha butcher knife total unrelated to teh first guy ..

The officer shot him at around 19 feet teh first round and put a few more in and still got cut in the arm not severly but still.
 
#5 ·
I seem to recall reading someplace that in situations like this a low shot is better. Instead of aiming center mass, shoot low and disrupt the pelvic area. This provides an almost instant drop.

Just food for thought.
 
#6 ·
From LEO training I was taught and showed . You can draw and fire on someone only outside the 21 ft. zone. This is from a duty holster, ready for the attack and the attacker is running at ya. How many attacks are gonna start 21 ft. away and/ or get your attention. Most knife and other attacks are gonna start MUCH closer. Better to learn to shoot , draw , fight from the ground and to block or react as you draw. I.E. get out of the way or use cover first. Don't believe it? Get a fake knife and unload yer gun. BE SURE ITS UNLOADED. Get a friend to charge ya from 21 ft. and see what happens.
 
#7 ·
Do The Test.

Be extremely careful (of course) ~ CHECK & Recheck your firearm.
You don't even need a fake knife.
Have somebody run at you with a carrot from 21' away & right after you do that test would be a really good time to ask yourself if you really want your defensive firearm secreted way down inside your pants and keeping your jingleberries company. :rolleyes:

rocky said:
From LEO training I was taught and showed . You can draw and fire on someone only outside the 21 ft. zone. This is from a duty holster, ready for the attack and the attacker is running at ya. How many attacks are gonna start 21 ft. away and/ or get your attention. Most knife and other attacks are gonna start MUCH closer. Better to learn to shoot , draw , fight from the ground and to block or react as you draw. I.E. get out of the way or use cover first. Don't believe it? Get a fake knife and unload yer gun. BE SURE ITS UNLOADED. Get a friend to charge ya from 21 ft. and see what happens.
 
#8 ·
Your appraisal of a threat should start at more than 21 feet. If a guy is hinkie in a parking lot over 100 yards away you should THEN begin your safety actions and move from yellow to orange. This is precisely because people with guns DO get cut even after a round/rounds are fired.

I train Mozambique. With practice, practice, practice he should be easy to side-step. He'll be dead.

Use your brain. Watch your surroundings before 21 feet ever comes up. 'Avoidance' is part of self defense, as well.
 
#9 ·
Please note the following discussion of pelvic shots by Dr. Fackler in--Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.
“I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:

-- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis.
-- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.
-- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.

The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers. Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.

Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”


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#10 ·
FLM said:
Please note the following discussion of pelvic shots by Dr. Fackler in--Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.
“I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many.
Cool, I stand corrected! Now that what these forums are about!
 
#11 ·
Fackler

Nothing wrong with pelvic shots despite what Fackler says. I like the zipper myself. Pelvic shots will anchor better than lung shots. How much of the upper torso is lungs?

21' if you are not wide awake, you will not get a shot off if you stand still. Moving off of the line of attack, getting something between you and the attacker, will give you time.
 
#12 ·
I am sorry you think this will be easy. I hope you never get caught in just such a situation. I hope you have the ability to pick up a threat from a ways off. But you have to be right 100% of the time, the BG needs to be right only once. I have seen diversionary tactics where skilled law enforcement officers where totally caught off guard. On that note, even law enforcement who do not have to draw from concealment still get beat to the punch.

I was just trying to pass on some info.

~A

The Tourist said:
Your appraisal of a threat should start at more than 21 feet. If a guy is hinkie in a parking lot over 100 yards away you should THEN begin your safety actions and move from yellow to orange. This is precisely because people with guns DO get cut even after a round/rounds are fired.

I train Mozambique. With practice, practice, practice he should be easy to side-step. He'll be dead.

Use your brain. Watch your surroundings before 21 feet ever comes up. 'Avoidance' is part of self defense, as well.
 
#13 ·
APachon said:
I am sorry you think this will be easy. I hope you never get caught in just such a situation. I hope you have the ability to pick up a threat from a ways off. But you have to be right 100% of the time, the BG needs to be right only once. I have seen diversionary tactics where skilled law enforcement officers where totally caught off guard. On that note, even law enforcement who do not have to draw from concealment still get beat to the punch.

I was just trying to pass on some info.

~A
I agree. You cannot be alert and ready for everything , all the time. Hell an attack can come from behind, or while some other distraction has your attention.
 
#14 ·
And that 21 foot drill is only an average - I've trained with folks that can cover that so fast that the first retention strap isn't even off before they're pegged the target.

It's especially true against taller folks with long limbs - you can cut a third of that distance off if they have large strides or long arms. If they have both, god help you.

And despite our best efforts, nobody is 100% aware 100% of the time. It just doesn't happen unless you're on GlockTalk.
 
#18 ·
Folks, have any of you ever seen a video called SURVIVING EDGED WEAPONS? It's no longer available (IIRC), but it was a certified police training video shot by some PD in Minnesota I think. Anyway, it was subpoenable in case you had to shoot in a knife situation because of it's status as being used to train LEOs. I learned from that and from many other examples that I myself am not capable of making the draw even out to thirty feet or more. Not when I'm the target and the perp is on the move at a solid run. Therefore I train to go into hand to hand with the full knowledge that I'm probably going to get "cut" but also that I'll be able to control the situation. In Aikido, the closer the opponent is, the better it is for the defender. Much better if he's moving fast. I'm no black belt and have no desire to be. Only competent.
 
#20 ·
We trained on a knife scenario just the other day at the S.O. The scenario was this...

You pull over a vehicle for an equipment violation. As you walk up to the vehicle to request the DL,registration and proof of insurance the door on the vehicle opens and the driver advances upon you with a knife.

Average range is 1 and a half car lengths...the minimum distance that you need to stop when pulling over a vehicle.

In each and every case the officer got "cut". This was proved with a rubber knife that was chalked upon the edges. Officers were using a modified Glock, modified with a "Simuniton" barrel and shooting Simuntion paintballs.

Several officers with enlarged egos were humbled that night.It was good training and much was learned. Every scenario was replayed several times, and just to keep it interesting, and somewhat realistic, at random times the driver of the vehicle would advance with nothing more than a cell phone or set of keys or in a few situations a small maglight.

Now here is the kicker...

Every officer was AWARE that SOMETHING was gonna happen. We didnt know exactly what, but our senses were somewhat alert, more so than average.
Even so, it seemed to matter little. In most cases, guns never cleared leather and for those that did, most shots were hits in the legs and feet. One rather comical looking but somewhat effective tactic occured when one of the officers backed up and fell on his back. He put his feet up while drawing from his holster and shot the "perp" several times. He also shot his right foot once and both legs took multiple cuts but it was felt that these would have been survivable. When he argued that the "perp" never cut his legs, he only had to look down to see the chalk marking all over his Levi's.

We've had several "man with a knife" calls lately, and this had sparked a bit of training in this area. You automaticly draw your gun if you see someone with a knife as you may not have time otherwise. Anybody stupid enough to continue holding a knife when told by armed officers pointing guns at them to drop the knife, is stupid enough to try to use it.

And in the car scenario with the knife...
If somebody wants your ass, it aint gonna matter how good you are or how good you think you are, they are goin to have it and there aint much you can do about it...
 
#21 ·
I agree with Exsoldier.....

It's better to fight a close/unexpected knife attack hand-to-hand than to stand there fixated upon employing a handgun while getting stabbed. You must deflect the knife and counterattack decisively with maximum violence. This is life & death, and you'd better fight like it! No Marques du Queensbury stuff.

Or deflect the knife/attacker and run. (Gain separation/time to employ firearm.)
 
#22 · (Edited)
Okay, i was in a knife fighting seminar and the instructor was trying to make an example of how inadiquate a gun was against a knife on some cases, so he picked my friend jeff and gave him an airsoft in a holster. Jeff and I train a lot and he's was definately the wrong person to pick if he wanted a good example of someone getting owned by a knife weilding opponent in a tuller drill. jeff started with his hands casually at his side in a relaxed position. Half way through the drill it was evident that if jeff knew how to operate the crossman airsoft gun (it had this weird ass safety, something not prepared for since he carries a glock), this guy would have been shot 6 times. He was out of the holster and in guarded retention before the guy with the knife had advanced half the distance.

The moral of the story is: Practice, practice, practice. We do close retention shooting drills all the time on the range.

Secondly, learn hand to hand. Not everyone has the type of reflexes to get the gun out of the holster in half a second.

third, situational awareness. The guy is not going to be charging at you from the front. It's gonna be like the pizza shop. You're gonna be distracted by sharonda laqueefa sharika james when her ex con boyfriend comes from the side and prison shanks you.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Clubsoda22: I agree with your post 100% I think your friend Jeff might have had other results if somebody had just charged him out of nowhere and he hadn't been previously alerted and had a moment to get "set." Still kudos to you both for all of your training! I also agree with hand to hand. I use Aikido quite a bit in my job as inner city high school educator. Lots of folks on probation and parole for fairly serious offenses. All of 'em think they're "tough" whereas only a very few REALLY are. Know how you can tell the difference? The truly tough never talk or brag. The wannabes are all mouth.
 
#24 ·
In my experiance, they all brag. most of them it seems have only been to prison so they can try to intimidate you by yelling "Bitch, i've been to prison"

Exactly what i mean by situational awareness. Both Jeff and I know that chances are slim to none that the attacker will be standing exactly 7 yards away right infront of you in a martial arts studio. It is nice to know that you can make that shot, however, if you spot the creepy guy in the parking lot following you before he makes his move. That's where practice and situational awareness come in.

It''s the rest of the time, most of the time where you have to use your hands to defend yourself before you can go for your gun.

If anyone has a chance to take a knife fighting seminar with Nick Hughes of F.I.S.T, take it. I learned more about defending from and fighting with blades an sticks in 10 hours than i had picked up in shooting and martial arts classes my entire life. It ranged from simple and effective techniques taught to prison guards to defend from the most common attacks to more advanced techniques derrived from Nicks extensive martial arts and knife fighting background.
 
#25 ·
I did this drill and it taught me a lot.

I tried using my shoulder holster: SLOW SLOW SLOW.
Unless I have an opportunity to do a stealthy draw, that can get me killed.

Even from mex carry, I shot the BG just a split second before I got killed.

Then tried the technique with movement:

MOVE, MOVE AT AN ANGLE, DRAW WHILE YOU MOVE,
SHOOT WHILE YOU MOVE, SHOOT HIM PLENTY, KEEP MOVING


This proves valuable at 7 yards, and it proves even more critical at
5 yards and then 3 yards. It proves itself more as the "attacker"
chases you rather than just running straight line.

A gunfight is NOT a static event.

If you are not using movement in your training, you are training to get killed.

Think it through.

--Travis--
 
#26 ·
FLM said:
Please note the following discussion of pelvic shots by Dr. Fackler in--Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.
“I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:

-- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis.
-- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.
-- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.

The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers. Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.

Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”


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Excellent read. I've always heard people talk about shooting the pelvic area and having the bad guys buckle over. I never did give it much thought because i still perscribe to the COM theory. But this is good stuff nevertheless. Now i have more reason to shoot to COM. Thought the though of getting shot in the pelvic area makes me cringe and make funny faces. Ouch!
 
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