Gun v knife (is 21 feet adequate?)

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Thread: Gun v knife (is 21 feet adequate?)

  1. #1
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    Gun v knife (is 21 feet adequate?)

    Worthwhile read.

    ~A

    Gun vs Knife
    Last edited by APachon; February 18th, 2005 at 01:37 AM.
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    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    I've seen this debated for over 20 years.

    The truth of the matter is that if you're wandering around in condition white, I can pick you out of a crowd from a block away and jump you.

    If you have the unfortunate luck of trying to attack my friends (particularly those with an IPSC background) who are aware of changing circumstances and watch people and events closely, well then, you'll be shot as you make the first step of your attack.

    I've come to the decision, which is old I realize, that it ain't the hardware, it's the man. When you are close enough to see him, he can see you. Make sure any ambush has an escape route. Don't buy your advice on defense from an ad in a gun magazine, and practice, practice, practice.

    Trust me, broken bones are a pain in the whazoo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tourist
    I've seen this debated for over 20 years.

    The truth of the matter is that if you're wandering around in condition white, I can pick you out of a crowd from a block away and jump you.

    If you have the unfortunate luck of trying to attack my friends (particularly those with an IPSC background) who are aware of changing circumstances and watch people and events closely, well then, you'll be shot as you make the first step of your attack.

    I've come to the decision, which is old I realize, that it ain't the hardware, it's the man. When you are close enough to see him, he can see you. Make sure any ambush has an escape route. Don't buy your advice on defense from an ad in a gun magazine, and practice, practice, practice.

    Trust me, broken bones are a pain in the whazoo.
    In my opinion you have missed the point of the article.
    Even if you are able to draw and shoot the BG with the knife, he is still going to cut you by way of his momentum. Even if you are able to shoot him it will take several seconds (Up to 15 to 30 seconds) for your shot(s) to incapacitate him.
    You have to move out of his path and deflect the momentum of his attack.
    His attack will come when he IS only a step away from you and as stated in the article, no one survives this kind of "close encounter."
    Staying aware and in "Condition Orange" will help you to avoid getting cut, but it may not stop it from happening.
    The best choice as the article states is to deflect the momentum away from you, in the opposite direction, then initiate the use of your firearm.

    All of the people in this "test" were aware an attack was imminent and still they lost. On the street as a civilian carrying a CCW you won't have that advantage. Unless you have been trained for a "conditioned response" through years of training and conditioning you are going to lose, because the BG's aren't going to be courteous enough to announce their intentions until they are ready to attack and they have the advantage.

    But you are right on one point in particular. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    We had a case in CCW class whre a officer talked about shooting a guy with a knife and still getting stabbed by the momentum..

    They were dealing with another criminal when this guy screams at up and starts running witha butcher knife total unrelated to teh first guy ..

    The officer shot him at around 19 feet teh first round and put a few more in and still got cut in the arm not severly but still.

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    I seem to recall reading someplace that in situations like this a low shot is better. Instead of aiming center mass, shoot low and disrupt the pelvic area. This provides an almost instant drop.

    Just food for thought.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    From LEO training I was taught and showed . You can draw and fire on someone only outside the 21 ft. zone. This is from a duty holster, ready for the attack and the attacker is running at ya. How many attacks are gonna start 21 ft. away and/ or get your attention. Most knife and other attacks are gonna start MUCH closer. Better to learn to shoot , draw , fight from the ground and to block or react as you draw. I.E. get out of the way or use cover first. Don't believe it? Get a fake knife and unload yer gun. BE SURE ITS UNLOADED. Get a friend to charge ya from 21 ft. and see what happens.

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    Do The test.

    Be extremely careful (of course) ~ CHECK & Recheck your firearm.
    You don't even need a fake knife.
    Have somebody run at you with a carrot from 21' away & right after you do that test would be a really good time to ask yourself if you really want your defensive firearm secreted way down inside your pants and keeping your jingleberries company.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky
    From LEO training I was taught and showed . You can draw and fire on someone only outside the 21 ft. zone. This is from a duty holster, ready for the attack and the attacker is running at ya. How many attacks are gonna start 21 ft. away and/ or get your attention. Most knife and other attacks are gonna start MUCH closer. Better to learn to shoot , draw , fight from the ground and to block or react as you draw. I.E. get out of the way or use cover first. Don't believe it? Get a fake knife and unload yer gun. BE SURE ITS UNLOADED. Get a friend to charge ya from 21 ft. and see what happens.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    Your appraisal of a threat should start at more than 21 feet. If a guy is hinkie in a parking lot over 100 yards away you should THEN begin your safety actions and move from yellow to orange. This is precisely because people with guns DO get cut even after a round/rounds are fired.

    I train Mozambique. With practice, practice, practice he should be easy to side-step. He'll be dead.

    Use your brain. Watch your surroundings before 21 feet ever comes up. 'Avoidance' is part of self defense, as well.

  10. #9
    FLM
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    Please note the following discussion of pelvic shots by Dr. Fackler in--Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.
    “I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:

    -- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis.
    -- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.
    -- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.

    The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers. Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.

    Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”


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    Quote Originally Posted by FLM
    Please note the following discussion of pelvic shots by Dr. Fackler in--Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.
    “I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many.
    Cool, I stand corrected! Now that what these forums are about!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
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    Question Fackler

    Nothing wrong with pelvic shots despite what Fackler says. I like the zipper myself. Pelvic shots will anchor better than lung shots. How much of the upper torso is lungs?

    21' if you are not wide awake, you will not get a shot off if you stand still. Moving off of the line of attack, getting something between you and the attacker, will give you time.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

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    I am sorry you think this will be easy. I hope you never get caught in just such a situation. I hope you have the ability to pick up a threat from a ways off. But you have to be right 100% of the time, the BG needs to be right only once. I have seen diversionary tactics where skilled law enforcement officers where totally caught off guard. On that note, even law enforcement who do not have to draw from concealment still get beat to the punch.

    I was just trying to pass on some info.

    ~A

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tourist
    Your appraisal of a threat should start at more than 21 feet. If a guy is hinkie in a parking lot over 100 yards away you should THEN begin your safety actions and move from yellow to orange. This is precisely because people with guns DO get cut even after a round/rounds are fired.

    I train Mozambique. With practice, practice, practice he should be easy to side-step. He'll be dead.

    Use your brain. Watch your surroundings before 21 feet ever comes up. 'Avoidance' is part of self defense, as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by APachon
    I am sorry you think this will be easy. I hope you never get caught in just such a situation. I hope you have the ability to pick up a threat from a ways off. But you have to be right 100% of the time, the BG needs to be right only once. I have seen diversionary tactics where skilled law enforcement officers where totally caught off guard. On that note, even law enforcement who do not have to draw from concealment still get beat to the punch.

    I was just trying to pass on some info.

    ~A
    I agree. You cannot be alert and ready for everything , all the time. Hell an attack can come from behind, or while some other distraction has your attention.

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    And that 21 foot drill is only an average - I've trained with folks that can cover that so fast that the first retention strap isn't even off before they're pegged the target.

    It's especially true against taller folks with long limbs - you can cut a third of that distance off if they have large strides or long arms. If they have both, god help you.

    And despite our best efforts, nobody is 100% aware 100% of the time. It just doesn't happen unless you're on GlockTalk.

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    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
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    Remember.............always have a backup plan/s as well as a backup gun/s.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

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