March 4th, 2007 06:51 AM
Lets see if I can articulate this.
I agree with the sentiment of it's not a game, and I agree that it's a moral, legal, and financial dilema but heres the thing. Everyone who carries a weapon for personal protection made the decision to do so for a reason. I've carried professionaly and personally all of my adult life, I have always been in position where I was responsible for the safety and well being of other people and I CHOSE to accept those responsibilities. Life is not fair, if it were I'd be better looking and have more money, but it is consistent. Carrying a weapon isn't about being a hero it's about taking responsibility for your self and protecting those you love. I've done things before that had the potential for getting me in a lot of trouble legally or financially, but I was morally obligated to do them. Sometimes it worked out and sometimes I had to pay the price, I accepted my responsibility for my actions either way and moved on, and I would do it all again without hesitation. I understand the burdens and risks and responsibility of defending myself and my family and I accept them. I can survive in jail, I can survive being broke, and if I'm killed I've got a million dollar life insurance policy. What I can not survive is if something were to happen to my family when I had the means and oppurtunity to stop it. I'm extremely confidant in my ability to assess a situation and respond accordingly quickly, and I will rely on those ability and focus on extending my skill sets instead of focusing on the "what if something goes wrong". YES it's dangerous out there, but I chose to be more dangerous than the predators and I'll accept the responsibility for that choice. Good luck.
"Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" Admiral David Farragut
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
March 5th, 2007 02:23 PM
Taking another persons life
I would like to add that yes it is a big responsibilty in carrying a weapon for self defense, BUT if you have any question on taking the BG life under self defense terms because of the possible aftermath of the shooting then you dont need to be carrying ccw
March 5th, 2007 10:33 PM
Some question is needed, else we're not human.
Originally Posted by BuckMark37
Need to carry and cognizance of the ramifications are not mutually exclusive. So long as the one (cognizance) doesn't impede the other if needed (defending), it's a good thing. That's called wisdom and realism. It's the path to finding that balance, to finding a way through without seeing a nail and realizing one's carrying a hammer. Nobody wants the rough road, but in an attack it's the road laid before us. That said, if attacked I'll defend to the degree necessary, the least necessary if the choice is possible within the parameters of terminating the attack.
Last edited by ccw9mm; March 7th, 2007 at 09:19 AM.
Reason: clarification, edit
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
March 7th, 2007 08:00 AM
Came to this realization BEFORE I obtained my LTC
Originally Posted by aznav
This is a realization I came to PRIOR to obtaining my LTC, but I do see that there are many who have not. This is something that is in the back of my mind at all times. I constantly find myself assessing my situation when in a public place. Searching out exits and possible spots to take cover should something occur. Your first responsibility is to escape, not stand and fight (in MA anyway). Whether right or wrong, this is the law in my home state. Therefore, I must be certain to mentally take inventory of my surroundings contantly. Should something unfortunate happen, I need to know that I eshausted all possibilities prior to using my firearm. Knowing that I am always mindful of these things makes certain that if I use my gun, it will be a legal shooting. That covers the legal aspects. The emotional and psychological are another matter, and something that each individual needs to examine long before they obtain a LTC. I know that, if necessary, I would do what I had to with a clear conscience. Just my thoughts on the subject.
March 23rd, 2007 02:27 PM
I saw a post once in a differing forum that was a reply to a thread in which the starter invited anyone involved in a gunfight to talk about their experience, if so willing.
One of the replies was from a man who had to take out 2 members of a 4-BG rob/abduct/rape team, while walking from a restaurant with his SO back to their parked auto. It was a 100% justifiable, "good" shoot, and he was ultimately completely exonerated, but only after going through the nightmare of a trial because certain members of the city commission felt his "failure drill" equated to unreasonably excessive force, and thus politically-pressured the DA to prosecute. He goes into quite a lot of detail re the aftermath ordeal, personal and psychological consequences. By the end of the story, you have a clear indication how much of it "came from the heart" of a righteous man forced into doing what would otherwise be unthinkable - and it was very insightful.
It's a long story, too long to post here . . . but if anyone would like me to, PM me with a regular email address for yourself, and I'll email you a copy of the article in Adobe Acrobat PDF-style file format which should be compatible with most PC systems.
March 24th, 2007 08:57 AM
"Dont forget that even if you are 100% in the right, you are still wide open for civil liability."
Not in Oklahoma.
March 30th, 2007 09:57 PM
I have never though that the taking of a life is a game. Not even hunting.
But at the same time, the fact that it is a serious affair and may very well screw up my life financially and emotionally will not deter me from carrying and if need be to protect myself or my family, killing an attacker.
I am a Persian Gulf War (1991) veteran and was in combat. I took lives and even though it was war, it still bothered me. Still does. But it was either them or me. I believe the same would apply in a self defense situation.
March 30th, 2007 10:11 PM
I carry a Keltec 380 in my pocket all day. I just got a laser targeting system for it. I paid the money so if it helps to deter from pulling the trigger then so be it. Also in the future if anything else get invented to put on my gun I will buy it at any cost. I will do anything to send a strong message to the BG stop or I will shot. I want him to stop!!
To close for missiles, switching to guns.
March 30th, 2007 11:26 PM
Let's look at that; potential heroes:
Originally Posted by Tom G
- Soldiers - still a good choice, but the media isn't exactly helping to show them as heroes lately.
- Police - most of them, but the vast majority of the coverage is focused on the "dirty" ones. Gestapo tactics don't help the image, either.
- Firefighters - excellent choice, but there just doesn't seem to be much attention on the individuals these days. All we ever see is a five-second overview shot with a few unrecognizable guys in coats before the news moves on to other stories.
- Federal officers - do I even need to bother?
- Cowboys - even living here in the "Cowboy Capital" I rarely see one with the manners to take his hat off at the table, much less act like any sort of hero.
- Astronauts - well, we *were* doing okay with that one until recently
That pretty much leaves musicians and athletes, and only the "bad boys" are getting any coverage in either field.
April 10th, 2007 11:39 PM
I as heard in a movie "With Great power comes Great responsibility"
If anyone that has carried doesn't act more civil, more even tempered, more forgiving or more easy to back down and away Then maybe you shouldn't carry. I couldn't have said it better if I tried! I didn't think about what a responsibility it was UNTIL I took the CCW class, driving home that night it hit home hard! I'm grateful that it did, as I am more even tempered and civil,and understand that I can only drive one car at a time The only thing that I know to do is get the best equiptment that I can afford (Kimber Ultra Carry II w/ Crimson trace sights), practice with it regularly , and as so many others on this site have said, Pray that I never have to use it. Thanks for the great forum Rex
"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier
and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the
service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the
love and thanks of man and woman."
-- Thomas Paine (The American Crisis, No. 1, 19 December 1776)
April 11th, 2007 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by aznav
Your life is really over when you're pushin' up daisies. You're life will never be the same as it is today. And life is chock-full of incredible responsibilities. Not to mention Life is only a game untill you run out of lives.
I think far too many people are under the illusion that they live in some kind of fairy tail world, where all the cold hard realities of life are just some kind of decorations that make thier life look more exciting without actually being a threat to thier comfortable little bubble of existance. Some of us actually realize how precarious of an existence we operate in, and are not phased by an event that brings that reality into focus. Usually those same people have had experience outside of the usual safe, suburban experience that is so common to Americans today. The stark reality is that we make hundreds of life-or-death decisions in our lives, whether we realize it or not, what tends to shake people is the ones where the consequences are immediate. The reality of carrying a firearm for the explicit purpose of snuffing another person's life, if he should threaten yours or those you love is one of those situations which defy your ability to discount the immediate consequences. That's my take anyway.
April 11th, 2007 03:19 AM
This has been and interesting read. Having come from 4 generations of Law enforcement I may have had a skewed outlook on what was normal. The reality of the world we live in came very early. That being said, I will have to say that when I made the decision to carry 25 years ago, the gravity of the situation did make an impact on me.
It how ever did not make me even consider the alternative of being a victim. I think as individuals that have the capability to take a life we carry our selves differently. I have talked to a few bad guys that say they can see us a mile away. That is a good thing. If an individual still acts as prey and yet carries a weapon he may be painting himself into a corner.
I have heard a few Lt. Col. Dave Grossman’s observations alluded to in this thread. His books “On Killing” and “On Combat” is an eye opening look at this process that that we have chosen to step into. I don’t agree with each and every word, but many are not his. They come from those that have “seen the elephant”. Pay special attention to the distance of killing, ours will be quite close. We would be wise to listen to these warriors. As others have said, it will change you. It may be within seconds or it may take years, but the payment will be made. That is nature’s way. I recommend reading them, strongly.
I had intellectually comprehended what it might be like to shoot at an individual or even to be shot at. I had the experience of the later recently. It missed, but went through heavy glass. I ended up picking pieces of bullet jacket out of my hand and glass out of my forearms and belly. I remained quite calm. An observer even said “I can’t believe how calm you are”. I am a retired fireman, so I do well under pressure. We cleaned up the mess, opened up for business and finished the day. As I found out later this was a good thing, it allowed for a little decompression with coworkers before being left with alone with my brain. Once I got home I ran through all the “what if’s and if I’d only” that you could come up with. I spent a few sleepless weeks. I work at a gun shop with a range, so I got over the sound of being on the wrong end a gun going off ten inches from me.
I relate this to you because the entire intellectual “what if’s” that you can think of will change when an incident occurs. Be prepared. Read all that you can. Talk to those that have been there, soak up what they have to offer. Know that you will survive. We are different from the sheep and the predators.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms... ."-- Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776
April 11th, 2007 04:25 AM
If the BG has his gun on you,and you beat him to the draw and shoot him,and he dies,didnt he just commit suicide in a way?Or has stabbed you.Or has tried to run over you with his car.Beat you with a ball bat.Put a pillow over your head while youre sleeping comfortably in the security of your home.etcetcetc.Why have a dirty conscious then when you did what you had to do to save your life,or your families?I wouldnt anyway.
I was the victim of a crime when I was 7 years old.The drunken son of a neighbor of my grandmothers ,where I was spending the night,broke in through a back window.He put a pillow over my head,then proceeded to choke and beat my grandmother and then tried to suffocate me.Neighbors heard the screaming and came running.He quit the beating,and tried to run and was caught.I'm pretty sure we would have died if they hadnt of heard the screaming.
My father was a career Marine,ex DI,ex-MP, and a LEO after retiring from the corps;as well as my grandfather who was also our towns police chief.I remember always going out shooting with my father and grandfather.I got my first gun,a Winchester model 290 .22 when I was 10.We all learned in my house how to clean the guns.We all learned about safety.And we all learned self defense tactics from my father.Not learned.we were drilled.Every kid in my house knew the drills because my dad drilled us,over and over.Especially after what had happened to me.
After my incident I went to counseling because I didnt want to sleep at night.(I still dont,31 years later).I would sit up,starting after the incident at age 7,and wait for the next BG,according to the Drs who worked with me.I still do.I have worked as a musician all of my adult life and have had to always have a job that let me have nights to be up,and I sleep during the day.Always will.
NO man will ever do that to me ever again.That man took my feeling of security away from me,for life.I will never be able to sleep with both eyes closed for more than 3 or 4 hours again.EVER.Drugs,hypno therapy,etc.Ive tried it all.Nothing works.My timeclock was disturbed at an early age and will never be re-set.
I started a martial arts training program when I was still in elementary school,then boxed in highschool and have kept it up to this day.Along with martial art weapons training,I have also kept up a love for firearms that started as a kid.I dont hunt or fish,or collect vintage weapons or firearms.My guns are for going to the range and practicing.My weapons are for killing,if I ever have to.I hope I never do.But I am ready in the event I ever have to.Hand to hand I can handle myself.Knife to knife.And gun to gun.
I study philosophy and spiritual teachings(not religious).I'm not a Christian.More like spiritual.But also agnostic.I love Zen.Mysticism.Metaphysics.Whatever it takes for me to be calm,cool,and collected in such a fast paced,weird,violent world.I believe in peace and harmony.But I am not naive of the real world.I had a taste of being helpless,and near death, when I was 7.Will never happen ever again.I believe if it is in you to take away something so precious as anothers life,then you should also be ready to die yourself.Some people say they are,but when it comes down to it,few really are.Doesnt matter what religion you study or what God you pray to.Death to some is still a taboo subject.We think nothing of killing insects or animals for food,but we hold another humans life in such high esteem.This has always confused me.To me,life is the ultimate gift.It is more than precious.
So.When that BG crawls in my window,or busts down my front door,or tries to pistol whip me for my car,etcetc;or whatever reason he thinks he has,I'm goiing to be as ready as I can to do whatever I have to to survive.Period.By any means necessary.Not just a gun.I wont have to stand there and ponder if what I am about to do is right or wrong.I dont have time for that.I have to act quickly.HE decided for me.HE decided for himself.
Here in Oklahoma our governor just signed a new bill.Our state was the first "Make my day " state I believe.Now its gone further.The new signed into law"Stand your Ground"bill-HB2615- made the other bill stronger.You can defend yourself from deadly encounters or dangers anywhere,not just in the home.And have immunity from not only criminal prosecution,but civil action as well.
I didnt get my CC permit to kill someone quicker,or even to feel safer.I may be ready to do what I have to do,but I am in no means paranoid about the world around me.Even as it gets more violent.But hasnt the world always been violent?If anything,we may be in a safer society than ever before.I walk with confidence in this world,armed or unarmed.
I got it for one reason- so I could legally carry to the range without getting hassled if I ever got stopped and forgot to put the mag in the glove box or whatever.The responsibility issue isnt an issue with me.That confuses me.Ive always been a responsible gun owner,just had to put them in the trunk and unloaded when traveling,or always kept in my homes locked when people are around,and loaded and out at night.Same as now.Same as when I grew up in my fathers house.
When that man did what he did to me,and I would have had access to a gun then,I would have shot and killed that man to protect my grandmother and myself.
More and more people are standing up for themselves and protecting themselves.Its your job to protect yourself.Not the cops.They wont come over until the crime has been committed.They arent babysitters or security forces.
As CCW holders,we are upholden to certain protocol and great responsibility and also a great deal of moral responsibility and restraint.If our modern world is going to have alot of lazy thugs hellbent on taking our hardearned property or even killing us,then I give thanks for all of the Bernard Goetz/JohnWayne/Rambo/Clint Eastwood/Chuck Norris/Mall ninja,whatever,etcetc types who have decided to send a message to these losers."We aint takin it no more".If prison is not really doing its job as a deterrant to violent crime,then maybe we as an armed society need to get the message to these people better.Violent crime does pay-with your life if you mess with innocent law abiding legally armed people.
Last edited by nofearfactor; April 11th, 2007 at 04:38 AM.
May 12th, 2007 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Echo_Four
May 13th, 2007 08:53 AM
How about Texas?
Originally Posted by Sig 210
“Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.” James Dean
Phil (NRA Member and Vietnam Vet)
------------- My CCW ----------------
No Guns Here Boss
I gave them to the naked Pigmy's in New Guinea
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