February 15th, 2007 01:58 AM
Killing a human is not a game.
Yes, I am a newbie. Yes, I have had my CCW for two years but only started carrying regularly for a month. I bought P239 last week and took it to the range today. It's a .357. My groupings were pretty decent. However, the power of the gun and the "accuracy" of my head and chest shots brought a real unease in my soul. I remember our CCW classes (four classes, four hours each). The first six hours were basically spent on talking us out of getting our carry permit. "You kill a human and your life as you know it is over forever." said the instructor. I know there is a lot of bantering on slamming the "BG's" but popping those rounds in the target's torso was real unsettling. Yes, I know and agree with all the arguments of my family over him. I agree and I am not some "touchy feely" metro sexual. But, man, what a serious responsibility we have in carrying a weapon. It's really not a game and the BG doesn't get up after we run out of ammo.
Ok, sermon's over. Any comments?
February 15th, 2007 02:14 AM
There is a whole lot of people who just dont get this...some are here on this board. But your right. Seems to me that a lot of people get caught up in being a hero, and wanting to be and do what they see on TV.
Read through some of the threads, you will see some posts that illustrate this mindset. You may come out fine and smelling like a rose, but you will be a different person once you have taken another human's life. Some things you just cant explain, some will never get it until they have been there.
This is also closely related to topic I mentioned in the thread about mall shooting/ poll. Many will talk tough and say they would do this and that. Most will do nothing other than save their own hide, and those who do shoot will have a longer fight ahead of them on many different fronts.
February 15th, 2007 02:17 AM
I agree, it's not a game. Sad thing is, to the bad guy it is a game. How does one play in a game... when they don't want to play a game? We as a country, need to start adopting nationwide laws that protect people involved in justified shootings, from civil lawsuits.
Just because I have no fear of civil prosecution (assuming I lived in a state with those protections), does not mean I want to take another life. Do I care if a guy trying to rob me dies? No, I really don't care.. they are a POS and better off not breathing. But I don't want to HAVE to be the person that makes that decision.
Carrying a gun is a huge responsibility. One must make the effort to become a better person once you carry a gun. Let traffic incidents blow over. Ignore people's rude comments and gestures. Learn to walk away from arguments at al costs before they turn into physical confrontations.
I know I carry something capable of changing someone else's life, and my life too. I do not want to ever have to consider using it. There are those out there who make the mistake of thinking a normal little fight between someone means you can pull your gun and use it. If I'm going to ever use my gun, it will be because my life is in immediate danger and the person has the desire, and the means, and the motive to end my life.
To use your gun in any way other than justified by law, puts you at risk or prosecution too easily. You better make darn sure that your life is in danger. Learn your state laws on deadly force and self defense, and learn them well.
February 15th, 2007 02:21 AM
Dont forget that even if you are 100% in the right, you are still wide open for civil liability.
Originally Posted by jednp
February 15th, 2007 02:25 AM
Good thread, aznav...
Making the decision to carry a weapon, and developing the mindset to actually protect yourself is a big step and a big responsibility.
...One must make the effort to become a better person once you carry a gun. Let traffic incidents blow over. Ignore people's rude comments and gestures. Learn to walk away from arguments at all costs before they turn into physical confrontations.
"I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York
"They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper
February 15th, 2007 02:29 AM
I know.. but that does depend on what state you live in, with more states passing laws to protect people defending their lives.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
But for civil liability... what REALLY leaves you wide open for civil liability, is an OJ situation. You look guilty as hell of comitting a crime, that there's really no possible way that you aren't guilty.. but somehow are found not guilty. That's why he got sued I believe.
Now anyone can still sue you even if you are 100 % justified and faced an immediate deadly threat to your life, and had no other choice but to defend yourself. But doing your best to try and make sure you are in the right... sure can't hurt when it comes to a civil case. having it be a sketchy incident that had to be decided in court will probably work against you in a civl case. But having a case where witnesses saw what happened, and the DA said absolutely no charges will be filed, this person had no other choice but to use deadly force. I believe you stand a little bette chance of coming out on top in a civil case with that. It doesn't guarantee it by any means, but it sure can't hurt you like a questionable shooting can.
Last edited by jednp; February 15th, 2007 at 02:30 AM.
Reason: left a word out
February 15th, 2007 02:32 AM
As I look at it...I am in the "Life Preservation" business, when ever I am carrying my weapon. I want to preserve both theirs and my life.
I try to use my most effective weapon (my brain) and deescalate the situation first. IF it is beyond that and no lesser force will do then I am prepared to survive and go home.
Know your situational awareness...white, yellow, orange and red.
Be prepared for the unexpected.
How you practice is how you will fight.
AND yes it is not a game, there are no do-over's, or mulligans, or opps. BUT if you have to use it....use it well! .......and then remember....it was either them....or you.
Give thanks to your higher power!
Stay safe....shoot straight!
February 15th, 2007 02:42 AM
the brain is the most effective weapon one can use in most situations. The vast majority of incidents people will find themselves in, could be deescalated. When someone gets mouthy with you, it is not time to mouth back.. it's time to leave and leave now. Even when you know they are in the wrong. You have to get out of that situation at all costs so it doesn't turn physical.
Originally Posted by TwistedMonkey
Will that annoy you? I bet it will. I hate people mouthing off to me when I have done nothing wrong. But now that I carry I'm not about to look at them, then just stand there and ignore them. That will only risk physical confrontation with them.
I find it best to just mind my own business, and generally others will mind theirs. And if they don't mind theirs, I will help them by leaving so they can't talk to me. Do not let situations escalate, they can potentially turn ugly and before you know it.. one thing turns to another and you felt your life was in danger. But it didn't have to be, had you just been the bigger person and walked far far away in the beginning.
February 15th, 2007 03:07 AM
"In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob should be required reading for anyone that carries or keeps a gun for self-defense.
Guns are not toys, no matter how fun they are to shoot, and using one should be a last resort. God help you if you are right when you make the decision to pull the trigger.
Basically, you are damned if you do, and dead if you don't.
February 15th, 2007 03:12 AM
Carrying a weapon is not a game, you are correct. However, if you choose to arm yourself, you have to come to terms with the fact that the intended purpose of the weapon is to take the life of another person. If you cannot or will not shoot a person, you have no business carrying a gun. It will simply make the situation more dangerous for you.
It worries me that you had such a harsh reaction to shooting a piece of paper. Everyone should come to grips with the fact that it is a deadly business to defend yourself. If you do not know, and I mean honestly know, that you could pull the trigger with your sights on another man's chest, then don't pick the gun up.
"The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
- Lt. Col. Oliver North
February 15th, 2007 03:13 AM
When I started to carry I felt the huge responsibility that went with it. At the same time, I felt empowered to defend my family and self.
The event in Salt Lake City is a stark example of why I carry all the time, no exceptions except to comply with law.
Having seen just a bit of combat, I know the feeling of being attacked, and proved I can fight back just as I was trained. I am sure that if that dreaded moment comes, most everyone will take a life to save themselves or their loved ones; I can't imagine a stronger motivation or call to courage.
"It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith
February 15th, 2007 05:56 AM
Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" lays out the pros/cons fairly well.
Originally Posted by aznav
It's not much more responsibility, really, than we already have: to protect our families; to value all life; to do what's necessary; to survive the aftermath. The thing is, if a violent criminal needs stopping, he/she needs stopping ... whether that's via a logical argument, or physically, whether via calling for the cavalry (ie, threat of imprisonment) or personally via hands, rocks, sticks or more-formal weapons. It comes down to the responsibility to weigh the value of another life with yours. It's a tough call, for many folks.
For me, it comes down to this: all life is precious and it should never be dismissed lightly. However, I also recognize that there is indeed evil in the world, created and perpetrated by humankind in all its forms. Killing meat to keep your family alive is one thing. That's how the natural world operates (lions, wombats, amoeba). But what some humans do is a sick, hollow shadow of that. It took me two years of contemplation and active training before I came to a point where I understood the risks and responsibility, before I was prepared to carry a firearm/knife and judged myself ready to defend to the degree necessary. Two years of searching, to understand that I could be that strong, that I could judge properly if it came down to that type of situation, that I could value life strongly enough to take down a threat to that life. Not easy. But, hopefully, the same journey (more or less) that we all take.
Previous thoughts on the subject.
But, once I made the decision to carry, that I could and would survive an attack and protect my family, the issue became clear.
Welcome to combatcarry.com, by the way! Nice to have another thoughtful, responsible carrier on board.
Last edited by ccw9mm; February 15th, 2007 at 10:36 AM.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
February 15th, 2007 06:10 AM
As of last October, you can't be sued in Michigan for a justifiable shooting, either by the perp or their relatives. Push your state government officials to get the same protection for yourselves.
February 15th, 2007 06:19 AM
Good Post, I totally understand what you are saying, as a matter of fact I sometimes shake my head at the Clint Eastwood mentality on this and other forums. However your post made me ponder a different idea, maybe it deserves it's own post. Here it goes:
The generation of kids today are growing up playing very realistic video games. I truly believe some of this has contributed to the increase of kids killing people. You can't tell me that years of killing people in a realistic video game doesn't fog the idea of reality. In the near future these kids will be applying for CCW permits, now we can only hope that by the age of 21 some maturity has taken place but take that very small minority that haven't and we have people shooting people over a parking place. This is something the anti gunners use to keep a state from adopting CCW laws, but I can see this happening to those few people who can't seperate life from fiction. The future for video games is incredible, actually placing the person in a virtual 3D world. I can only hope this doesn't happen, but 30 years ago we never worried about kids taking guns to school. We didn't have cops on campus, or metal detectors. Sorry for the rambling but just writing down some thoughts. I am doing what I can to educate my own son and his friends, with parents ok, to the world of shooting and I am constantly drilling it into their head, THIS IS NOT A GAME!!!
When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
February 15th, 2007 06:32 AM
In the years I spent roaming about at sea I ran into much of what NCHornet is talking about already, "Hey, this is all just a big game out here. No consequences for mistakes, right?" I got to rescue a few myself and have listened to the screams and cries on the radio of a few no one could get to. I also came to grips with the fact that the lives of my family and myself often lay totally in my hands. Bad decisions in many circumstances would get us all killed. Some never could get used to that and left that life for the "safety" on land. Some are just darn lucky to be very dumb yet still alive. The ones who have learned to accept the responsibility are changed and in a good way.
Carrying a weapon is sort of the same. A lot of lives rest in your hands. Many will accept this, grow into that awesome responsibility and be changed for the better. Some scare me. But this is never, ever a game. Just as saving a life can change you, taking one will change you. Even if it had to done. If you think it will be neat, or fun get some help. You need it....
If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.
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