School-Mall, etc.. Active Shooter Musings

School-Mall, etc.. Active Shooter Musings

This is a discussion on School-Mall, etc.. Active Shooter Musings within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Recient events and topics here have encoraged me to do a bit of pondering on the topic of intervention in a mass homocide situation of ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    School-Mall, etc.. Active Shooter Musings

    Recient events and topics here have encoraged me to do a bit of pondering on the
    topic of intervention in a mass homocide situation of some sort . Specificly as it
    would relate to a mall or school .
    I am going to assume that everyone realises should they choose to interviene it will
    basicly ruin thier lives and that of thier family either thro ptsd, legal problems
    and expenses , or a combination of the above. You will not be seen as a hero when
    the dust settles rather as a trigger happy maniac with rambo fantasys by even many
    of the people who otherwise would likely have been victoms. Another issue is that we
    seem to be able to get our mind arround possibly being killed in a gunfight , but
    have you considered living the rest of your life in a wheel chair wearing a
    colostomy bag , or shot through the head to the point that you loose 90 % of your
    mental facilitys and nothing is left but being a burdon to your family ? If this has
    been considered and intervention is your cup of tea lets look at some of the nuts
    and bolts that interviening might involve.

    Since this is not another thread on would you , or if your family is or is not
    present I wont address that .

    My take on things as they stand is with the current political climate ( liberal
    warming ? ) as we pull out of the mid east , the war will follow us home . Attacks
    on places where large groups of disarmed victoms congrigate WILL not may happen .
    Schools and Malls are prime targets due to our reverance for our children in this
    country . Plain fact is there is more press in killing one child vilently and
    publicly than driving thro all the adults you can pack onto a sidewalk.

    Since "Bad Guy" is too mild for this type scum , as is " insurgant " I will use the
    phrase Violent Criminal ( VCA credit to John Farnam for this consise label )

    1. How many VCAs are involved , Is it a lone loon or a terrorist attack ?
    This imho is the first thing you need to establish. It does no good to shoot one and
    get killed by his accomplace who is 30 ft behind you.
    For the lone loon VCA, how long has it been since you worked yourself and your
    firearms at 25 to 50 yards pistol , and 100+ with rifle ? It is easy for me to walk
    a mall or school and find thiese ranges and more when you consider shooting from
    cover to where the VCA is actively killing innocents quite possibly with a rifle .

    If its a terror attack there is more chance of body armor and explosives being
    involved which should affect your tactics. Also are you willing to leave a wounded,
    suicidal VCA behind you ? I am in no way advocating exicution of wounded , but
    consider if the downed VCA has a gernade, how much damage could be done to
    responding people be they LE/med or simply folks who were present at the time .

    2. Your goal here IMO is not necessairly to kill the VCA(s) but to disrupt whateaver the plan was when they entered. Immediate armed resistance from cover will throw off the plan, and timeing. If you can dump one even more so since one of thiers going down will disrupt the " team psycology " of the attack. Every second you delay/disrupt them is time for more innocents to flee the scene, and brings LE that much closer in thier response.

    3. Identify your targets, They will be the ones pointing firearms at you and at innocent people. The other guy or gal pointing a firearm at them is most likely your new best friend.

    4. Realise that you have commited yourself to a foolish and possibly fatal course of action. Worry about Cops , Court , Your cell phone going off , and other cheap crap later. Be able to articulate why you did what you are doing/going to do , but get it done first.

    5. Under no circumstances are you a hostige. When the VCA(s) find a firearm on you they WILL shoot you out of hand , you cannot be trusted to be compliant.

    6. If you did not bring a rifle to the party then get one. If you do your job properly with your pistol there will likely be a rifle laying around that no one is useing at the moment. Do you know how to manipluate an AK-47 or SKS or AR-15? take the bad guys handguns too-do you know how to manipulate a Makarov or Tokarov? Dont worry about moving evidince after all CSI miami can sort it out , and it falls into the cheap crap catagory untill the threat(s) are resolved.

    7. Time is NOT on your side, do not hesitate. Rather meet the threat with overwelming violance immediatly. Once they hit the door and start the plan , If your not allready gone then your a dead man walking . Negoation will not work , pleading will not work , and hiding will not work . All that will work is immediate violent action forceing them to react to you instead of proceed with what they had planed. They did not plan for you to be there armed. If you allow them to procede by hesitating thier plan will work. Your chance lies in disrupting thier plan so they are as confused as thier victoms .
    VCAs who operate using "team" tactics of any sort tend to energize one another...you see football teams do the same thing every time they break the huddle and hustle to the line. And many times you see them fall compleatly apart when the qb is hurt , can they recover and win with the 2nd stringer? Yes , but it takes time for them to regroup and get the " group energy" back so they can effectively function as a team again.

    8. Surving the responding officers.
    This one may well be tough , I would say to drop or pitch the gun , get it physicaly away from you in any event, and get your butt behind some cover from the officers. That way you can peacefully surrender to them possibly without being shot . No garontees on the not being shot part tho . Hands visible and empty , scream like a girl , whateaver they want and makes you feel the least bit safer do it .

    9. A final thought on the subject is that Intervention can be done successfully by "amatures " for instance, that when two determined aggressive robbers ran rampant in Miami in 1986 the professionals handled the case and the ensuing game plan resulted in the worst gunfight seen in fbi history with multiple agents killed. While in Norfield Mn. about 100 years prior the citizens handled a much larger gang of bank robbers, most of whom were combat vetrans and acomplished shots and had no restraint whatsoever.... the citizens shot them to doll rags the instant they came out of the bank! Most knew them as the James-Younger gang.
    First responders have the best opportunity...nobody can be any "firster" than the intended victims.


    Long post, but covers a lot of ground too. Now what do you think ?
    Last edited by Bud White; February 23rd, 2007 at 08:30 PM.
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    What are "Active Shooter Mussings?"
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    LOL mussings and half formed thoughts on what to do with a situation where you are faced with an active shooter(s) reeking havic at will .

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (Actually I corrected that in the title line now - P95)
    Last edited by P95Carry; February 16th, 2007 at 11:55 PM.
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  4. #4
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    Senior Member Array me's Avatar
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    Wow, I had generally thought about this but you have gone into some depth here. Thanks for letting me follow your mental process.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    hehehe - I get it now...nevermind.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Lots of good stuff there. I can't fault you for anything but lousy spelling.

    I like the VCA acronym. I also like the immediate, no hesitation response to VCA activity. If someone points a gun at you or another innocent person during the commission of a crime, there is no legal, moral, or ethical requirement to ask them to drop the weapon like they do in the movies. If you do, you risk the life of the person on the end of the BG's muzzle. The best course of action is to shoot first, then politely ask BG to drop the weapon.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    Another issue is that we
    seem to be able to get our mind arround possibly being killed in a gunfight , but have you considered living the rest of your life in a wheel chair wearing a colostomy bag
    This may be a bit morbid, but I would point out that in this circumstance, you could always put that bullet through your head later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    3. Identify your targets, They will be the ones pointing firearms at you and at innocent people. The other guy or gal pointing a firearm at them is most likely your new best friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    6. If you did not bring a rifle to the party then get one. If you do your job properly with your pistol there will likely be a rifle laying around that no one is useing at the moment. Do you know how to manipluate an AK-47 or SKS or AR-15? take the bad guys handguns too-do you know how to manipulate a Makarov or Tokarov? Dont worry about moving evidince after all CSI miami can sort it out , and it falls into the cheap crap catagory untill the threat(s) are resolved.
    I think these two are in some conflict, since one method of target identification is going to be looking for people holding AKs. A rifle is better tactically than a pistol, but it may be the equivalent of holding a "shoot me" sign. Much better to bring your own, if possible.

    Considering incidents along these lines, you may want to take a look at John Farnam's 2005 NTI report, particularly the 'Subway Madness' event, which simulated a large terrorist attack.

  8. #8
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    A participant in an active shooter scenario in a school has alot to consider.

    One is the bad guys.
    Two is the good guys.

    Having trained in active shooters scenes at the one of the local schools, the FIRST thing that the police are looking for is ANYONE with a gun.

    Now here is the thing...
    Everyone knows that it is illegal to be in a school with a gun, so you are taking a huge chance there. When the cops arrive, and they see you with a gun, I can just about guarantee that you will be staring down their barrels.

    Think about it. Every local agency gets a "shots fired " call at the school. Every cop within radio distance will show up with the hair standing up on the back of their necks, and they wil lbe toting shotguns, AR's and some will even have scoped rifles. A man with a gun in a school could be engaged from several different angles, and they will be put on the ground and cuffed. That is a very dangerous situation indeed...because the cops wont know that you are just trying to be the good guy here.

    Once the principal or designee is aware that something is dreadfully wrong at their school, they have specific orders of how to act...as do the teachers, and they practice it on occasion.

    There wont be any teachers or students running around once things are "locked down" or evacuated unless the officer is right around the corner when they get the call. The kids will be locked in their classrooms along with the teachers. Without going into too much detail here, suffice it to say that if someone happens to be in that school and they are unfamilar with the proceedures then they may be at serious risk from the responding officers...because those officers will assume that any one walking the halls is quiulty until proven innocent, and it may talk some time to figure that out, and they wont be very concerned about your rights as a citizen, prefferring to err on the side of caution.

    If one happens to be right there when someone opens fire,then by all means take that sucker out. Then call the cops and inform them immediatley while securing your gun.

    Otherwise, if you dont know exactly what is going on, it would be much better for you to stay out of it, because if you wander around looking for the badguy and you get shot by them or the cops, it wont matter that your intentions might have been honorable.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Everyone knows that it is illegal to be in a school with a gun, so you are taking a huge chance there.
    Actually, that's not true in every state. The federal gun free school zone act allows states to make exceptions for their CCW carriers. Several states have done so including Utah, Michigan, Oregon, and California. If you've got a permit from one of these states, you are perfectly legal to carry on school grounds in that state.

  10. #10
    Member Array Harold Green's Avatar
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    The lead post on this topic is very, very good, and, unfortunately, may be a preview of coming attractions. Once the troops come home from the sandbox (which may be soon in the present political climate), you can expect to see the fight brought to our own shores.

    Three years ago at the Polite Society Conference at Rangemasters in Memphis, one of the presenters walked us through a set of training videos captured from Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. These were centered around capturing an American elementary or middle school and killing the kids in a way that would generate maximum media exposure.

    The methodology they plan to use involves two groups of VCAs. One group rushes the school, rounds up all the kids, kills all the adults and takes the kids to a multi-story rooftop. Once there, they wait for the news helicopters before they start to push the kids off the roof or shoot them for the cameras. The other group establishes a perimeter around the school focused on taking out the first responders (police, fire, EMS, etc…), in order to allow the first group time to execute its plan. The plan calls for all members of both groups to fight to the death.

    Here are a few points the presenter brought up.

    Don’t expect to be saved by a prompt police response. They’re going to be tied up trying to handle the group at the outer perimeter.

    If the school does manage a lockdown, it won’t stay locked down very long. They will plan for this and be ready to deal with it.

    If you are an adult in this situation, you can expect to be shot on sight unless you take immediate, violent action.

    You will not have enough ammunition on your person to keep up the fight as long as will be needed. In order to survive, you will have to kill one or more of the VCAs and appropriate weapons and ammunition. If you are going to be able to do this, you must be familiar with a variety of weapons systems.

    The people you will be fighting fully expect to die as part of their operation. Don’t expect them to react as someone would who expects to survive.

    As you can see from the above, this is not like being caught in a “normal” good-guy/bad-guy situation. It’s much closer to finding yourself in the middle of a military operation.
    "A gentleman will seldom, if ever, need a pistol. However, if he does, he needs it very badly!" -- Sir Winston Churchill

    "He who goes unarmed in paradise had better be sure that is where he is." -- James Thurber

  11. #11
    Member Array TwistedMonkey's Avatar
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    A lot (to much) to process in a short amount of time.
    How you practice & how you prepare is how you will react. AND when it is all said and done....it's not play time it's show time and what's at stakes are real lives.
    TV, Movies and Video Games have desensitized the shear brutality and reality of this type of horror. Heart rates & breathing increase, fine motor skills are out the window, tunnel vision sets in and mild shock starts to set in.
    Pray we never have to face this, & if so be prepared.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I think these two are in some conflict, since one method of target identification is going to be looking for people holding AKs.
    I said nothing about ak's or any other specific firearm on target id. I did ask if you know how to run the models that imho would most likely be present at any attack. I am well aware that the destinctive shape of an ak will be a bullet magnet but if i am shot by cops at least there are two things to my advantage , 1. i lived till they arrived and 2. they allways bring ems with them so treatment will commense as soon as it is safe for personel. Also see point 8.

    I started the thread pointing out the likely consiquinces of intervention, and stating i am going to assume you considered and accepted them as a possible outcome.
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array glock27mark's Avatar
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    reply to youre tale

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Actually, that's not true in every state. The federal gun free school zone act allows states to make exceptions for their CCW carriers. Several states have done so including Utah, Michigan, Oregon, and California. If you've got a permit from one of these states, you are perfectly legal to carry on school grounds in that state.
    in michigan, unless you have an exception on youre cpl,school grounds are a pistol free
    zone. the only excecption is picking up/dropping off youre child or
    parking zones. also any school activties on school grounds are
    pro hibited.

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Great idea for a thread. A couple things I haven't thought of. It's a very difficult decision to be the person that sticks up for others.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Know your limitations...

    I remember Clint Eastwood's final line in one of the "Dirty Harry" movies. He said "a man's got to know his limitations".

    In general, if I'm walking around with a concealed handgun, it is for the purpose of defending myself or my companion against a direct attack on our lives. It is not for the purpose of intervening in criminal situations I may see when they don't involve me directly. If I see a crime taking place I will probably take cover and make a 911 call on my cellphone, rather than drawing my gun and jumping into the middle of the action.

    I'm not a superhero wearing a cape that can take on multiple armed criminals and win - I'm just an older guy that can't run very fast. I know my limitations.

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