This Makes Me Very Sad

This is a discussion on This Makes Me Very Sad within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I do a quick press check every time I put mine on and go out into the world.......

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Thread: This Makes Me Very Sad

  1. #31
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    I do a quick press check every time I put mine on and go out into the world....
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Here let me show you literally what I mean.

    This is a Ruger P89 with an empty chamber.



    This is a Ruger P89 with a round in the chamber ready to fire.



    If you can tell the difference you're a better man than I.

    For me, that represents ambiguity.

  4. #33
    Member Array Deke45's Avatar
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    Euclidean & Bumper

    Both good points....like I said, consistency of habit...whatever it may mean to you!

    Kimber Ultra CDP Elite STS II

    A gun is a tool...the real weapon is between your ears!

  5. #34
    Member Array Deke45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    If you can tell the difference you're a better man than I.
    For me, that represents ambiguity.
    The difference in my mind is on my 1911 style pistol, I have to rack the slide to go cocked & locked. There is no reason to do this without a magazine inserted (when preparing the gun for service of course), and if there is a magazine in the weapon, and it's cocked & locked, I know there was a round chambered. The mag immediately gets topped off. It's a regiment I have followed consistently for years, therefore I am comfortable....but that's just me!! Everyone has to do whatever gives them a warm & fuzzy!

    Kimber Ultra CDP Elite STS II

    A gun is a tool...the real weapon is between your ears!

  6. #35
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    I hate to do this, but I will quote "Blackhawk Down and Eric Bana's character" Pointing to his finger, this is my safety.

    I wholeheartedly agree with his utterance. I carry a 1911 Cond 1. I know when I present that the safety is coming off around the end of step 1, and that my finger is along the slide clear to step three. I have heard some students have been taught to take the creep out of the trigger on the way to arm extension in step 3. My triggers have been modded to remove all but a very minimal amount of trigger creep.

    ~Andy
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  7. #36
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    First of all, it's good to hear the gentleman and his girlfriend made it through ok. A close second to that is that he didn't become a statistic and provide ammo to the antis by getting his gun taken from him, and even worse, used on him or his lady friend. Some good may come of the story if word gets spread to others who Israeli carry - if any of them read this please get the equipment and training that will allow you to carry in a constant state of readiness.

    Admittedly, I did carry my first Glock with an empty chamber for the first week I owned it. Having been trained on 1911's and Beretta's from my start in handguns, I just didn't have confidence in that little trigger safety. A better holster, more research, and more training made me take the next step and carry with a round in the pipe. As another poster said, but for the grace of God...

  8. #37
    New Member Array John R's Avatar
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    Sounds like he needs to practice a lot more before carrying. This could have been a very bad situation.
    John
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    Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns!
    Matter of fact, so has his nephew's golf club.

  9. #38
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    I am not going to be in lockstep with most of our members since I totally disagree with carrying a pistol in condition 1, next to my body in anythikng less than a hard leather or Kydex holster, and even at that only in an OWB mode.

    IWB, IMHO literally begs for a pistol to be carried hammer down, chamber loaded. There are just too many good conventional SA/DA or LDA pistols that can be carried, that are just as fast to bring into action, and just as accurate

    My Para Companion 45 has the LDA feature, which gives the pistol the lightest smoothest trigger pull I ever experienced, and I feel no anxiety when I shove it into my waistband Mexican style as I am prone to do. The manual safety prevents the hammer from actuating if it should snag on some article of clothing, or the IWB holster, resulting in the loss of vital pieces of ones Anatomy.

    I totally agree that carrying with no round in the chamber is like bringing a knife to a gunfight, totally useless.

  10. #39
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    Come to think about it, I press check my gun before going out too. As for mexican carry, I feel its too easy to have a gun fall out or slide out of place. Especially if you figure if you are pushed over or assaulted things get physical. I would hate to have my pistol go clattering on the ground as someone knocks me down.

  11. #40
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    For Me Personally

    Firearm ambiguity is not an issue for me.
    I have never had a N.D. or an A.D.
    The outward appearance of any firearm is not an issue.
    It does not make any difference to me if any firearm "Looks At A Glance"
    to be loaded or empty.
    A "Loaded Chamber Indicator" is not ever an issue for me.
    Pistol OR Revolver, OR Shotgun, OR Rifle ~ I ALWAYS either treat it as if it were fully loaded & HOT ~ or...I visually check it to make sure that it is NOT.
    I never assume that any firearm is unloaded.
    I always assume that EVERY firearm IS loaded.
    BUT
    Because I do not believe in poltergeists, ghosts, or "Spirit Levitation" of rounds OUT of a chamber...I often DO NOT check to make sure that my firearm IS STILL loaded and still WITH a round in the chamber BECAUSE I already know that it IS.
    Example:
    I "Turn In" for the night & my Daily Carry Firearm goes with me to the bedroom.
    I already KNOW it's fully loaded with a chambered round ~ because I loaded it & because I was the doggone guy that cranked the round into the chamber.
    I treat it as if it were "hot" ~ because I already know that it is.
    When I get up in the morning & put that same firearm BACK on ~ Do I "press check" it to make sure that it's STILL loaded before I put it back on? ~ NO...because I KNOW that nobody unloaded it while I was asleep.
    I know it's hot ~ I carefully put it back on like it's HOT!
    If I put my holstered fully loaded (round in the chamber) firearm on the upstairs dresser & then go downstairs & eat lunch & then go back upstairs & put my holstered firearm back on...Do I check it to make sure it's STILL loaded? No, Of Course Not. That is unnessarry farking around with a loaded weapon.
    I am alone...I don't have any kids...I don't have a housekeeper ~ WHO would unload it while I was downstairs eating lunch?
    On the flip side of the coin...I never pick up ~ or hand anybody ~ or point ~ or store ~ or shelf ~ ANY firearm assuming that it's UNLOADED!
    There IS a difference.
    I am sitting at my computer right now. My holstered, loaded, "round in the chamber" firearm is on the table three feet away from me.
    Why on Earth would I check it to make sure that it's STILL loaded before I put it back on???
    It sure didn't slip into Twilight Zone for 10 minutes ~ UNLOAD ITSELF ~ & then magically materialize back on my table. I know it's loaded ~ I pick it up & I treat it like it's loaded.
    I either assume and treat EVERY firearm as if it's loaded and ready to fire or I visually check a firearm EVERY TIME to make sure that it's NOT loaded.
    I never hand a revolver to anybody else unless the cylinder is cracked open & I visually count either 5 or 6 empty holes.
    I never hand a semi~auto pistol to anybody unless the magazine is out & the slide is locked back.
    The correct proper procedures are always performed for any type of Single Action revolver, Shotgun, or Rifle before that firearm is ever handed off or stored or goes back in my safe.
    That is just my opinion on this & it works for me.
    Of course anybody else can develop a system that is tailored to their individual life situation.
    Last edited by QKShooter; March 4th, 2005 at 11:36 AM.
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  12. #41
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    My history of shooting is 30 some years but was always very revo oriented ... particularly compo's. Only used BHP as my semi for long time.

    Coming actively to the 1911 type platform relatively late re carry, I am less comfortable with cond' 1 than some, tho have carried BHP C&L at times.

    My solution is to have my P226 - round chambered of course - and it goes bang pretty darned quick. Practice of course improves the transition from D/A to S/A .. no prob's. Best of both worlds - just for me.

    This guy was all but foolish to be carrying - effectively prematurely - inexperienced, untrained probably - and he was lucky, very lucky. It's to be hoped he has learned and profits from the experience - and trains suitably, and/or changes his carry platform. Whatever it takes.

    Sadly, I think there are quite a few who carry as he does - thinking just having a chunk of gun on board cuts it - well it doesn't!
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  13. #42
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    Ya' know, sometimes the certain gun you carry dictates the condition for transport.

    In 1979, there weren't as many choices as there are today--coupled with effective commercial loads.

    I carried a full-size 1911 and three spare magazines in a Jackass rig if I wore a coat. It was heavy. A SW 39 was a blessing after that.

    But I couldn't always wear a coat, and Wisconsin had no CCW law. (It still doesn't). The summers here are hot and muggy, and the SW 66 was about the only reliable stainless handgun at that time.

    A friend sold me a Bauer 25, an all stainless steel version of the Baby Browning. With the thinner wooden grips, the pistol disappeared in any pocket. A simple lightly oiled rag was all the maintenance I needed after being carried in a damp summer pocket.

    The problem was that the Bauer is 'striker fired,' that is, when cocked, a firing pin is wrapped with a compressed spring and held back by a small tab. That's it. It was prudent to carry with the firing pin forward on a empty chamber.

    Now, a six-shot .25 ACP might not sound like much of a gun, and I have up-graded since that time. But I was a bill collector in those days, andanything was better than nothing.

  14. #43
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    Smile Cocked...Locked...AND....??

    Quote Originally Posted by Deke45
    Cocked & locked, cocked & locked...practice, practice, practice.....repeat!(or whatever fits your firearm)
    Cocked...Locked.....AND....READY TO ROCK!!!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    Firearm ambiguity is not an issue for me.
    I have never had a N.D. or an A.D.
    The outward appearance of any firearm is not an issue.
    It does not make any difference to me if any firearm "Looks At A Glance"
    to be loaded or empty.
    A "Loaded Chamber Indicator" is not ever an issue for me.
    Pistol OR Revolver, OR Shotgun, OR Rifle ~ I ALWAYS either treat it as if it were fully loaded & HOT ~ or...I visually check it to make sure that it is NOT.
    I never assume that any firearm is unloaded.
    I always assume that EVERY firearm IS loaded.
    BUT
    Because I do not believe in poltergeists, ghosts, or "Spirit Levitation" of rounds OUT of a chamber...I often DO NOT check to make sure that my firearm IS STILL loaded and still WITH a round in the chamber BECAUSE I already know that it IS.
    Example:
    I "Turn In" for the night & my Daily Carry Firearm goes with me to the bedroom.
    I already KNOW it's fully loaded with a chambered round ~ because I loaded it & because I was the doggone guy that cranked the round into the chamber.
    I treat it as if it were "hot" ~ because I already know that it is.
    When I get up in the morning & put that same firearm BACK on ~ Do I "press check" it to make sure that it's STILL loaded before I put it back on? ~ NO...because I KNOW that nobody unloaded it while I was asleep.
    I know it's hot ~ I carefully put it back on like it's HOT!
    If I put my holstered fully loaded (round in the chamber) firearm on the upstairs dresser & then go downstairs & eat lunch & then go back upstairs & put my holstered firearm back on...Do I check it to make sure it's STILL loaded? No, Of Course Not. That is unnessarry farking around with a loaded weapon.
    I am alone...I don't have any kids...I don't have a housekeeper ~ WHO would unload it while I was downstairs eating lunch?
    On the flip side of the coin...I never pick up ~ or hand anybody ~ or point ~ or store ~ or shelf ~ ANY firearm assuming that it's UNLOADED!
    There IS a difference.
    I am sitting at my computer right now. My holstered, loaded, "round in the chamber" firearm is on the table three feet away from me.
    Why on Earth would I check it to make sure that it's STILL loaded before I put it back on???
    It sure didn't slip into Twilight Zone for 10 minutes ~ UNLOAD ITSELF ~ & then magically materialize back on my table. I know it's loaded ~ I pick it up & I treat it like it's loaded.
    I either assume and treat EVERY firearm as if it's loaded and ready to fire or I visually check a firearm EVERY TIME to make sure that it's NOT loaded.
    I never hand a revolver to anybody else unless the cylinder is cracked open & I visually count either 5 or 6 empty holes.
    I never hand a semi~auto pistol to anybody unless the magazine is out & the slide is locked back.
    The correct proper procedures are always performed for any type of Single Action revolver, Shotgun, or Rifle before that firearm is ever handed off or stored or goes back in my safe.
    That is just my opinion on this & it works for me.
    Of course anybody else can develop a system that is tailored to their individual life situation.
    That's fair enough QK but it's that level of confidence combined with that visual ambiguity that kills people. I personally know of two people who have been shot because of it.

    One of them owns two firing ranges.

    The other was a Marine for 20 years. He died because of it.

    In short, people get hurt because it's impossible to tell if most semiautomatics have a round chambered or not. It's a fact we all have to live with and consider.

    These are not newbies, inexperienced people, or idiots we're talking about here; these are people with decades of real world experience and training who have suffered because of this ambiguity. The ability to look and see instantly is extremely valuable under any conditions regardless of how accomplished you are.

    Now thankfully it does not happen very often and you probably have a better chance of being struck by a drunk driver, but I try to see the benefits of all tools, especially the ones everyone else dismisses.

  16. #45
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    Exclamation Loaded Chamber Indicator or Death by STUPIDITY?

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    That's fair enough QK but it's that level of confidence combined with that visual ambiguity that kills people. I personally know of two people who have been shot because of it.

    One of them owns two firing ranges.

    The other was a Marine for 20 years. He died because of it.

    In short, people get hurt because it's impossible to tell if most semiautomatics have a round chambered or not. It's a fact we all have to live with and consider.

    These are not newbies, inexperienced people, or idiots we're talking about here; these are people with decades of real world experience and training who have suffered because of this ambiguity. The ability to look and see instantly is extremely valuable under any conditions regardless of how accomplished you are.

    Now thankfully it does not happen very often and you probably have a better chance of being struck by a drunk driver, but I try to see the benefits of all tools, especially the ones everyone else dismisses.
    I don't know the details of these shootings you mention but I can pretty well definitely state that "visual ambiguity" wasn't a contributing factor or even a MAJOR factor. How old is handgun technology? Two hundred plus years? Loaded chamber indicators are a fairly new phenomenon and due mostly to the rise in lawsuits against the industry rather than by tactical necessity. HowEVER did Sergeant York keep track of those Germans he killed and captured without a loaded chamber indicator? Heat of Battle. How about Audie Murphy? How about David Hackworth in the Vietnam war? How about our SpecOps guys loaded with a .45 and not much else creeping through those DARK caves in Tora Bora? Maybe they kept count? Naaaaah Too tough to count to eight (maybe 14 with a nine) Right? You'd do better to assume that with a nine it will take a minimum of two per customer to do the job, anyway so counting every other round still comes to seven.

    The range owner is not necessarily a "gun guy" just because he has the business sense to invest in a profitable venture. The retired Marine could have spent his time as a supply sergeant in the rear who only fired for Quals once or twice a year. The bottom line is that these folks were guilty of negligent stupidity and fatal carelessness. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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