Believer CC reservations?

This is a discussion on Believer CC reservations? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Myself I am not Christian , but from what i know and understand there is no problem with defense of your self , family , ...

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Thread: Believer CC reservations?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Myself I am not Christian , but from what i know and understand there is no problem with defense of your self , family , or good for that matter ( read here others ) up to and including violence . I have no idea why you have any second thoughts on the issue but will respectfully suggest that there is a corralairy in that some interprate the 2nd to be a collective right not an individual . Just food for thought and i dont have a " dog in this fight " at all lol .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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  3. #32
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    I was worried to reveal a lack of Christian affiliation on this (or any other gun forum) for the simple reason that I didn't want to be ostracized.
    But now others have I feel free to add a non-Christian perspective.
    It is my humble opinion, and common-sense I believe, that ethics and moral fortitude are not the sole preserve of the religious. It certainly helps but it is not automatically correct that the non-Christians or non-religious are any less compassionate or considerate towards fellow man.
    So, that said it is fair to assume that while a Christian may consider his interpretation of the Bible or his relationship with God when deliberating a use of lethal force, a non-Christian can reach the same conclusion without those factors.
    I was brought up in a pacifist family. Somewhere along the line I ended up carrying a handgun. I gave it much consideration before reaching that outcome, but I am very comfortable with it.
    I don't want to kill anyone, I would find that hard to live with. But I have an even stronger desire not be a victim of some selfish loser who steals, maims and kills his fellow man rather than work. Thus I am prepared to protect myself, up to and including lethal force.
    Just an opposing viewpoint. I think any mindful individual who carries has deliberated and found the peace inside to be able to.

    Bottom line, people who carry are just nicer, better adjusted people, whatever their spirituality.



    I asked about the capitalization as some people over use them in matters pertaining to religion. I understand Christ, but not Him.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    My understanding of the caps is that they are simple respect . IMHO if imho deserves caps to set it off then the spiritual founder of any religon most likely does too lol . I have no issue with anyone showing respect in the manner they choose , its the folks that show no respect for anyone or anything that i get crossways with .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    There are different types of Christians with different mindsets on this subject, but I think the following sums up mine pretty well. I didn't see any copyrights so copied this, and will post a link to the page at the end:

    THE BIBLICAL CASE FOR SELF-DEFENSE. It is noteworthy that the Bible records many accounts of fighting and warfare. The providence of God in war is exemplified by His name YHWH Sabaoth ("The LORD of hosts"--Exodus 12:41). God is portrayed as the omnipotent Warrior-Leader of the Israelites. God, the LORD of hosts, raised up warriors among the Israelites called the shophetim (savior-deliverers). Samson, Deborah, Gideon, and others were anointed by the Spirit of God to conduct war. The New testament commends Old testament warriors for their military acts of faith (Hebrews 11:30-40). Moreover, it is significant that although given the opportunity to do so, none of the New testament saints--nor even Jesus--are ever seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 3:14).

    Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus revealed to His disciples the future hostility they would face and encouraged them to sell their outer garments in order to buy a sword (Luke 22:36-38; cf. 2 Corinthians 11:26-27). Here the "sword" (Greek: maxairan) is a dagger or short sword that belonged to the Jewish traveler's equipment as protection against robbers and wild animals. A plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense.

    Self-defense may actually result in one of the greatest examples of human love. Christ Himself said, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:14). When protecting one's family or neighbor, a Christian is unselfishly risking his or her life for the sake of others.

    Theologians J. P. Moreland and Norman Geisler say that "to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally."

    http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/qselfdefense.html
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  6. #35
    Member Array mrtca's Avatar
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    Jesus said "if someone strikes you on the cheek to turn the other cheek", but he sure didn't say anything about letting someone cause you grave bodily harm or take your life.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgtD View Post
    Theologians J. P. Moreland and Norman Geisler say that "to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally."
    Thanks for that quote. The last sentence pretty much expresses the foundation stone of my reasoning when I started to think about becoming a concealed carrier. There are basically 4 events over a period of over 30 years that brought me to my decision. 1) In July 1974 my parents little country store was robbed. My mother was the only person there at the time. After doing exactly what the robbers asked my 56 year old mother was beaten severely. The one of the two robbers who beat her is now serving 6 20 years sentences that run consecutively. After this incident my father changed the routines that he had followed for 28 years to make sure that my mother was never in the store alone. He also took measures to make sure he would never be far from a powerful firearm and that he had a small one on his person. 2) In July 1975 another armed robbery was attempted. During this attempt my 63 year old father killed two robbers in what was described by several LEOs as an extraordinary display of shooting. 3) In November 2005 on my way home from work at 11 PM two individuals approached my truck while I was stopped at a traffic light. One angled from the cross walk toward the driver's side and the other approached from the rear in the area that most rear view mirrors will not show. Having lived in New Orleans for 14 years I had learned several things these amateurs had not. All my vehicles have the extra convex mirrors on the main ones so that there are not dead zones. When someone approaches unexpectedly I immediately check out the surroundings. When I did I noted the approach from the back. I then put my truck into reverse. The backup lights caught the guy behind by surprise and he decided that he had business elsewhere. If he had not he would have made the acquaintance of my rear bumper. The guy up front evidently agreed that their business was elsewhere. A good idea since I was turning the wheel so the front fender would catch him as the back bumper took care of his friend. This got me to thinking: if this will happen on the main street of our little town what could happen 4 blocks away where I live while I am working until 11PM? 4) That brought me to this passage of Scripture: 1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. (KJV) I decided that providing for my own meant more than food, shelter, and clothing. It also meant more than just being prepared to defend them or even actually defending them. It also meant preparing them to defend themselves and providing what was necessary for them to do that.

    As I thought about the scriptures and their teachings combined with the fact that doing what a BG tells you does not insure that you will be OK I thought back about my father's response. A robber fired two shots at him and he returned fire. My mother was also in the room. I asked my father a few days after the shooting how he was doing. He responded that he had a hard time sleeping the first night, but the next day he determined that it had been a "them or us" situation and that he was OK with deciding that "us" were more important than "them." So after the first night he had no trouble sleeping. I then had to think about what would happen if it came down to a "them or us" situation and had to admit that unless we did something it would be them. Then I decided that I did not like that answer and things had to change.

    As a result my wife and I are both carriers. We have both taken some training and will be taking more. We both shoot regularly to hone and keep our skills (hers don't need much honing). We also, like my father had done, changed some routines so that my wife never is alone in the house and if she is out and comes in while I am at work there are routine to be followed for her protection. On Tuesday and Wednesday I go to work at 1 PM and close the library at 10 PM or 11 PM depending on which part of the semester it is. When she gets home at 4:30 she takes our three dogs in with her. If anything unusual was happening they probably would have warned her anyway. On Wednesday she goes to church at 6:30 and I take the dogs back out to the back yard when I go back to work after supper. When she comes home she calls me on the cell phone before she arrives at the house. I tell her if I have changed any of the way things looked from when she left. In the summer I sometimes lower the shades before I leave and sometimes I don't. That way if anything appears different she is not to stop, but to come to the library. If nothing has changed she hangs up and takes the dogs in the house and then calls back from the house phone to let me know she is in. Similar procedures are used whenever she is coming home and I am not there.

    We have no children at home so there are firearms of different shapes and sizes located around the house. Her house gun is a Taurus 44 Ten (.45 Colt/.410 ga.) revolver. It presently resides on the end table next to the place she usually sits. It is my intension to get a holster sort of like this one.

    That way she will have the Taurus with her where ever she is in the house. She usually wears a white lab coat around the house anyway, so if someone stops by she can button the lab coat and not scare them. The Taurus has 3 .410 000 buckshot rounds and two CCI .45 Colt JHP rounds in it. The .410 rounds would be the first one that would be fired. The two .45 rounds are for anyone still moving.

    Are we safe? I don't think we can ever be safe, but we are safer in that we are more prepared to deal with situations that would have been beyond out abilities previously.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  8. #37
    Member Array Dihappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyC View Post
    Defending one's self and loved ones from human predators is no different than defending them from wolves. Given God's standards, there is no struggle to be had...go forth and carry!
    I never had a qualm about carrying as a Christian. I am ready to defend myself or another from harm.

  9. #38
    New Member Array Oofty Goofty's Avatar
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    There is an old saying "when you pray for potatoes reach for a hoe"

    I will modify it to say "when you pray for protection from a BG reach for a glock"

    I am a believer, by the way (Pastor no less)

  10. #39
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    A gal friend of mine once forwarded me a story about a girl who was walking down a dark ally on her way home from a party where her ride forgot her. As she entered the dark ally she noticed two suspicious men milling around at the other end. She instantly started praying for God to protect her and keep her safe. She reached the other end of the ally, walked right past the men and continued on her way home.
    The next day, on the news, she heard about a girl being rapped in that very same ally by two men.
    She called the police and reported that she had seen two men in that ally just before the time of the rape and that she believed she could identify them.
    She description helped the police arrest two suspects who she immediately identified in a police line-up.
    As they were taking the two suspects away she asked the officer with them if she could ask them one question.
    She said, "You may not remember me, but I walked down the ally just minutes before the gal you rapped. Why didn't you attack me?"
    One of the men said, "Because you weren't alone. You had two men on either side of you."

    Now, I don't believe the story for one dog-gone second and if you ask me she was a MORON for going down a dark ally with two suspicious characters standing at the other end of it. First, she should have asked for another ride home. Second, if she was FORCED to walk home she should have started praying while she backed out of the ally, walked another way or went back to her friends house and called cab or another friend to come and pick her up.

    I AM a Christian and I do believe in miracles, but there is a good saying that states, "God helps those who help themselves." and another one that says, "Don't tempt fate."

    God doesn't have to do anything for us and while he may reach out and protect us in some moments, more often than not we ARE left on our own.

    I've been a victim before in more ways that I care to list here and it took one final and horrible event for me to realize that the responsibility of my life and safety lies in no one's hands but my own. My parents couldn't protect me, my society couldn't protect me and even though God COULD have protected me, he chose not to for some reason.

    Ever since that fateful moment I knew I would do anything to defend myself, even kill if necessary. I'll pray while I'm fighting, but if it's them or me I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it's them and NOT me.

    I look forward to starting a family with my husband and even the thought of my children having to go through one-one hundredth of what I had to go through fills me with a righteous indignation I can't even begin to express.

    I don't wish for vengeance or retaliation, I only know that the life of a victim is literally no life at all and I WILL NOT go through it again and so help me God, neither will my children.

    If that's a sin, I'll gladly take it up with God when I get to heaven but I'll live in peace while here on earth.

  11. #40
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    I wish I paid more attention; but, basically Jesus told his followers to arm themselves.

  12. #41
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    In God we trust, All others, thats what my S&W 638 is for.
    quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

  13. #42
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    I keep seeing this statement "God helps those who help themselves" all over the place. As a seminary student (soon to be pastor) and serious student of Scripture, that phrase is...well...bunk. God helps us when we cannot help ourselves. I see my weapons and my calling to bear them as a gift from Him (along with everything else in life that can be called good), and so when I respond, receive the gift and carry out the call it's not me meeting God halfway, but rather it's God meeting me where I am and giving me the courage, wisdom, and resources to respond. Scripture is very clear--we can do nothing good apart from Him, including self defense. Sorry to split hairs, but it's important to not take credit (even half of it) for something that God has given.

    Sure, there are those who will not respond and receive the gift. Their end is their own work.

    Lima--grace, peace and continued healing to you through the finished work of Christ. Carry (concealed) on, good sister.

  14. #43
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    I am a Christian which determines how I live my life on this earth and after I leave it. I pray often "Please Lord don't make me have to use my weapon today, but if I must please grant me the wisdom and the accuracy to do your will"
    Timmy Jimmy

    If it is not in the US Constitution then the Federal Government should not be doing it.

    "Carrying a gun is a social responsibility."

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjp2452 View Post
    I keep seeing this statement "God helps those who help themselves" all over the place. As a seminary student (soon to be pastor) and serious student of Scripture, that phrase is...well...bunk. God helps us when we cannot help ourselves. I see my weapons and my calling to bear them as a gift from Him (along with everything else in life that can be called good), and so when I respond, receive the gift and carry out the call it's not me meeting God halfway, but rather it's God meeting me where I am and giving me the courage, wisdom, and resources to respond. Scripture is very clear--we can do nothing good apart from Him, including self defense. Sorry to split hairs, but it's important to not take credit (even half of it) for something that God has given.

    Sure, there are those who will not respond and receive the gift. Their end is their own work.

    Lima--grace, peace and continued healing to you through the finished work of Christ. Carry (concealed) on, good sister.

    Good thoughts! And in a large way I think you're right.

    I did say, in my last post on here that God helps them that help themselves and I've been in some debate to that effect ever since with my Mother.

    I don't understand why God let what happened to me, happen to me, and for a very long time I was very bitter about it.

    At one point in time, when my Mom asked me when my turn around point was (because she knew my bitterness) I told her that in some way I looked at it as though God and I were even. I had a horrible childhood and now I have a wonderful life.

    My Mom said, "No, you aren't even, God's just blessed you. It wasn't His fault all of that happened to you and He didn't fail you, all the rest of us did."

    It was a humbling conversation because I knew that she was right. I want to take credit for how far I've come but I shouldn't. There are just as many people out there, who, instead of being filled with righteous indignation and picking themselves up and moving on with their lives, just sink further into the filth and end up loosing the rest of their lives to even worse atrocities.

    Instead of being filled with fear and hate and bitterness and loathing, I was filled with courage, resilience, determination and the good kind of anger (after all, the Bible does say, "Be angry and sin not.")

    So you are right, but I do loose site of it. I want to take credit because I feel my life only turned around when I took control of it and stopped waiting for someone else (God included) to intervene.

    On the same token there are some people I know who don't get insurance because they think it shows lack of faith in God for their provisions.

    The way I look at it is that God put some people on this earth to create things to help us all through life, whether it be self defense and self defense laws or insurance. The Bible says He will provide a means of escape, maybe picking up a gun is just one of those means he's provided.


    Thanks, sjp

  16. #45
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Great post. When people ask me "how can you believe in God when so much evil is happening all over the world"? I remind them that God is (temporarily) not running things here. Scripture clearly calls Lucifer "The god of this world". The devil has been in control ever since Adam and Eve gave the world to him by disobeying God. God is a gentleman, and He follows his own rules - He gave the world to man (for a time) who then turned it over to The Adversary (who then inherited the authority to run things from man). God is allowing it for a time in order to keep His word, so to speak. When the time is up for man to be running things, then Lucifer will get the boot. Until that time, things are going to be bad.
    That's why I carry a defensive firearm - because the world is presently overcome with evil. Evil people (by definition) are those who rape, murder, rob and assault others. As long as they exist, I have the duty to protect my family from them. Some people choose to be decent, moral folks who harm none. Other's make the opposite choice, and we must always be on guard against them.
    Limatunes, I am deeply sorry that you had whatever it was happen to you. I am equally glad to see that you have put it behind you and been able to turn it into something positive. You've made a lot of great contributions to the forum in the short time you've been here. Thank you, and welcome aboard!(albeit somewhat belatedly).

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