VA CCW holder list published in Roanoke Times

This is a discussion on VA CCW holder list published in Roanoke Times within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs Packin please keep us updated on google's response , this could be intresting as anti gun as they are , ...

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Thread: VA CCW holder list published in Roanoke Times

  1. #91
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    Packin please keep us updated on google's response , this could be intresting as anti gun as they are , while they censor searches for china lol .
    Ok, It appears they may have removed it (google that is). The only response I got from them was within minutes and it was basically a form letter saying any request would take a while. As of 1900 the google cached link was still working.. I just checked again (2245) at it appears that the link shows part of the roanoke page, but the names and addresses don't appear anymore. So either too many people are hitting the link and killing google's bandwith(which I highly doubt)...or... they actually removed the data. I'll let you know if I actually get a human response back (ie no form letter).
    Oh and here's the initial response I got back:
    Thank you for reporting this problem. We take security issues very
    seriously and would like to assure you that we'll investigate verifiable
    security concerns. Please note that some of our products are complex and
    take time to update. When properly notified of legitimate issues, we'll do
    our best to acknowledge your emailed report, assign resources to
    investigate the issue, and fix potential problems as quickly as possible.

    If you don't have a security incident to report, please visit
    http://www.google.com/support/ for a list of our Google product Help
    Centers. We're always working to provide comprehensive, up-to-date online
    assistance and it's likely that you'll find the answer to your question
    there.

    Regards,
    The Google Team
    Also, I'll be writing a letter of thanks/gratitude back to the Google folks for helping if it turns out to be the case that they did indeed remove this one(rather than sheer volume or accident killing it).
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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  3. #92
    Member Array tj1231's Avatar
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    This has to be the most infuriating thread I have ever read here.

    I certainly feel bad for those of you whose SECURITY was undermined. I hope there will be some legal recourse for all of you. After all, you've seen from the posts on the scumba...I mean criminals website that you're officially on a shopping/hit list now.

    Oh, btw, Gabe Saurez should be ashamed of himself IF he doesn't do background checks on his students.
    "Learn as if you'll live forever...Live as if you'll die tomorrow" - SOULFLY

    Where am I going....and why am I in a hand basket???

  4. #93
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Ode to Christian Trejbal

    Sent to every email address at The Roanoke Times, including our hero. Interestingly, his email address isn't listed on the same page as his colleagues' addresses. Perhaps even they are taking the hint and he's already out the door.

    For my money, this could have been sent to every email address in Virginia, but it's late and I'm tired.

    Mr. Trejbal:

    In honor of the millions of law-abiding, upstanding,
    right-minded citizens across the United States who
    stand appalled and in disbelief by your callous and
    unjustified publishing of the Virgina concealed-carry
    database, this is for you and The Roanoke Times.



    ODE TO CHRISTIAN TREJBAL, March 2007

    Journalist Hell is a just reward,
    For the unwary and unwitting.
    Being strung by one's words, in the end, is
    What many would think quite fitting.

    But I am with the majority who think
    Your deserts aren't hardly enough
    After your dishonorable and despicable act this week
    Of publishing your neighbors' stuff.

    The criminals and felons are singing out loud
    As this windfall drops at their feet,
    Of data on concealed carriers,
    Including the number and the street!

    What made you believe that you had the right
    To do horrible and damaging things
    To your friends and colleagues and citizens alike ...
    Perhaps that your unlisted phone wouldn't ring?

    May the sweat of a thousand camels
    Be held in reserve for when you pass by.
    You sorry excuse for a journalist and citizen,
    Your sad life has become a lie.

    May you find no rest along the road
    Nor at the end of the line.
    It's my hope and wish that you suffer
    A lifetime of such responses, in kind.

    Thanks be to you, Mr. Christian Trejbal,
    That none will now sleep well at night
    Knowing criminals and perps and violent wolves
    Have keys to every gun-owning home in sight.

    Your pathetic long life will be your reward.
    Suffer through it, if you're able.
    And may this country's fine folk no longer listen to you
    As you lose your seat at the table.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  5. #94
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Publisher Debbie Meade said she was "concerned enough about complaints from readers to act out of an abundance of caution." In a pig's eye.

    Interesting little tidbit in the Roanoke Times' newspaper for Wednesday, March 14 (below) ...

    Paper Receives Flak For List

    Paper receives flak for list
    Threats of violence, litigation and legislation sprang up after a list of people allowed to carry concealed weapons was released.

    By Laurence Hammack
    981-3239

    The Roanoke Times will not re-post a list of gun owners on its Web site, even after being told amid continuing public furor that releasing the information does not violate state law.

    First published Sunday, the database of more than 135,000 people allowed to carry concealed handguns has become the most controversial content in roanoke.com's history -- sparking threats of violence, litigation and legislation.

    One day later, the list was removed from the site because of concerns that state police might have inappropriately included the names of crime victims on a list it provided to the newspaper.

    Although there is a law that protects the identity of some victims in certain circumstances, state police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said Tuesday the restriction does not apply to the concealed-weapons list.

    "The information released to The Roanoke Times was in total compliance with the Freedom of Information Act," Geller said. "It is up to the recipient of that information to be a responsible guardian of the information."

    While Geller declined to comment on whether the newspaper acted responsibly, hundreds of angry readers have said in e-mails, phone calls and even threats that it did not.

    By naming everyone in Virginia who has received court permission to carry a concealed weapon, critics said, the newspaper invaded the privacy of law-abiding citizens and all but invited criminals to burglarize homes for guns. Another concern is that victims of domestic abuse, who might have armed themselves for protection, are now in danger of being tracked down by their abusers via the database.

    Although the legal concerns stated by the newspaper as the reason for removing the names no longer seem to apply, Roanoke Times president and publisher Debbie Meade said Tuesday that there are no plans to put the information back online.

    "The list was put up as an example of a public record," Meade said. "It was never intended for that information to be housed indefinitely on our site."

    The list, which included the names and street addresses of concealed-gun owners searchable by their hometowns, ran with a column by editorial writer Christian Trejbal that was published Sunday in the Current, a section of the paper that covers the New River Valley.

    Trejbal used the occasion of Sunshine Week, a national initiative to recognize open government and public records, to note that in Virginia the list of citizens "packing" is a matter of public record.

    After obtaining the data from state police under the open records law, the newspaper published the list so that its readers could, in Trejbal's words, "search to find out if neighbors, carpool partners, elected officials or anyone else has permission to carry a gun."

    But just because the newspaper had the information is not reason enough to publish it, said Edward Wasserman, a professor of journalism ethics at Washington and Lee University.

    "Maybe there's a point there. [The information] is instructive and I don't want to be completely dismissive of that," Wasserman said. "But it's coming at a real cost, and I don't think the invasive nature of it is sufficiently outweighed by its instructional value."

    Concealed-weapon permits are on file in local courthouses for anyone who asks to see them. And a statewide list maintained by state police in Richmond is available through a Freedom of Information Act request.

    Yet critics have complained that aggregating the information into a central database accessible by a few quick clicks of a mouse goes too far -- especially when there is not a compelling reason to release en masse such details as home addresses.

    One possible irony is that Trejbal's stated intent to trumpet open records could result in their being slammed shut.

    "The fear is that this kind of scatter-shot use of public records is going to bolster the position of those who would now want to pull that information from the public domain," Wasserman said.

    In fact, Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, said Tuesday that he is seeking an attorney general's opinion on whether state police were within their legal rights in providing the information to the newspaper.

    Even if the attorney general finds that police acted correctly, requesting the opinion could be the first step in a move at next year's General Assembly to pass a law exempting concealed-weapon permit information from the Freedom of Information Act.

    "It's something that we're going to have to take a look at," said Nutter, who had received more than 20 calls from constituents concerned about the newspaper's use of the information.

    Meanwhile, The Roanoke Times continued to feel the wrath of readers.

    By midday Tuesday, there had been more than 2,000 visits to an online discussion forum, at least 36 canceled subscriptions and countless angry calls -- some that showed up in company voice mail well before dawn.

    There were also some threatening comments directed at Trejbal that led the newspaper to place a security guard, at least temporarily, outside his Christiansburg house.

    Concerns were heightened early Tuesday afternoon when a mysterious package was delivered to the house.

    The street was closed, a state police bomb squad was called in and at least some neighbors were evacuated after Trejbal found the package during a lunchtime trip home.

    Lt. Mark Sisson of the Christiansburg Police Department said that Trejbal said he definitely didn't order the package, "so we're going to take every precaution." However, it turned out the box was full of blank postage labels and cardboard mailers.

    Staff writer Paul Dellinger contributed to this report.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  6. #95
    Member Array woodstock's Avatar
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    I'm as angry as everyone else on that list

    I've sent an e-mail to the yellow coward telling him how I feel. I didn't threaten him with any violence but I did tell him to keep looking over his shoulder because he's pissed off a lot of people and their lawyers are gaining on him.

    Everyone in Virginia who is on the list should keep in mind that if they sufffer ANY fallout after the list was published they may have recourse in a civil suit. A civil suit doesn't require proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" like a crimiinal case does. A civil suit only requires proving a point by a "preponderance of evidence" in order to suceed. Remember the second O.J. trial? Even though he wasn't convicted in the criminal case he still lost the civil case. (Let's NOT debate that case here!)

    I think enough jurors on almost any jury could be convinced that the reporter and the editors/publishers were at least partly responsible for any misfortune suffered by anyone on that list. (I'm not a lawyer and this isn't given as legal advice.)

    Keep track, If anyone is assaulted, robbed, burglarized, or anything else then sue the reporter and publishers out of existence. One of us should own and shut down that rag.
    The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.

    George Washington

  7. #96
    Distinguished Member Array 4my son's Avatar
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    But just because the newspaper had the information is not reason enough to publish it, said Edward Wasserman, a professor of journalism ethics at Washington and Lee University.
    You're darn skippy

    "The fear is that this kind of scatter-shot use of public records is going to bolster the position of those who would now want to pull that information from the public domain," Wasserman said.
    At least some of his piers think he was reckless and irresponsible too. It will be interesting to watch what happens with this over the next year. How long will it take him to live down the reputation of the reporter that swung the door to freedom of information a little further closed.

    Personal comments kept to myself for fear of my being kicked off this forum.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  8. #97
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Oh the irony! Betcha the guard is armed. Might even have a permit. Think he is enjoying this assignment? Think Trejbal is more or less nervous with his protector?

    http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/wb/108536

    There were also some threatening comments directed at Trejbal that led the newspaper to place a security guard, at least temporarily, outside his Christiansburg house.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  9. #98
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son View Post
    At least some of his piers think he was reckless and irresponsible too. It will be interesting to watch what happens with this over the next year.
    He has no piers, supports or other buttresses that can help him stand, on this one. Just another poor sod without a backbone. Peers, though? Plenty, sadly. Folks willing to do at least what he and the R.T. have done.

    Misinformation is one thing. With "media" organizations and journalists, it's to be expected that lies, deceit, failure to research and failure to inform will be superseded by the goal of exercising the "microphone" to different ends. I'll watch with relish ... pass the tabasco.

    Americans have a decidedly short-term memory and an inability to stay focused, unless the bee is in the bonnet. Realistically, it's only a segment of the population bummed or even effected by what this functionary did. He's merely a hand puppet with someone else's agenda propping him up. "Live down"? Might not have to, as it will likely blow over. I sincerely hope that won't be anytime soon.

    “The list was put up as an example of a public record,” Meade said. “It was never intended for that information to be housed indefinitely on our site.”
    Well, for the record: Trejbal, Meade, Tarrant and the lot who allowed this injustice to happen are not worthy.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #99
    Member Array Knight's Avatar
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    You could counter with a list that provides the names and addresses of all those who do not have a CCW license. So many names to choose from for the BGs.

  11. #100
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    This exact sort of reckless journalism was the catalyst for our getting the personal information of CCW holders exempted from disclosure here in Florida.

    This reporter may actually have done you a big favor in Virginia, if you can use his idiocy to motivate the legislature.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  12. #101
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    You could counter with a list that provides the names and addresses of all those who do not have a CCW license. So many names to choose from for the BGs.
    Apples and oranges. Damage and choice. It's not very easy to pick out a BG from such a non-specific list of everyone.

    A targeted list is so very different from a non-specific list, in terms of the damage done by knowing that certain characteristics apply to a group. It's that knowledge that's dangerous, not the simple fact that names/addresses were disclosed. The telephone "white pages" listings has this for most folks. Further, folks get to choose whether to be listed. In the case of this Trejbal incident, everyone's "clothing" was ripped right off, by force. Big, big difference.

    “Maybe there’s a point there. [The information] is instructive and I don’t want to be completely dismissive of that,” Wasserman said. “But it’s coming at a real cost, and I don’t think the invasive nature of it is sufficiently outweighed by its instructional value.”
    The whole incident is instructional. And the value is incredibly high! Instructional of just how invasive "power tools" can be in the wrong hands. The simple fact that such data exists means it will be exploited in a damaging way at some point, IMO. THIS IS THE RISK of a centralized list ... of keeping track of citizens with firearms ... of a national CC permitting process. This is the risk, and it's not even the legitimate authorities committing the act. This time.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; March 14th, 2007 at 09:45 AM.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  13. #102
    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    Pathetic use of the press (as usual).....
    May God be with you guys in Va and I hope no one suffers violence at the hands of someone using the info on the list....
    "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.


    "...be water, my friend."

  14. #103
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Oh the irony! Betcha the guard is armed. Might even have a permit. Think he is enjoying this assignment? Think Trejbal is more or less nervous with his protector?

    http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/wb/108536

    There were also some threatening comments directed at Trejbal that led the newspaper to place a security guard, at least temporarily, outside his Christiansburg house.

    Gee--too bad we don't have the guard's name....might want to look it up to see if HE has a permit...

  15. #104
    Distinguished Member Array Chooie's Avatar
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    Reply from one of my legislators

    I agree with you; many are concerned about issues of privacy, safety, and
    certainly obligations that need to be addressed. This latest publicity
    about public listings of names and address for concealed handgun permits
    also reminds me of recent dismay about other releases of citizens' private
    information from Clerks Offices' being "on line".

    I am happy the TIMES took off this site and hope this will not happen
    again.

    Thank you for your promptness in suggesting that legislative remedies
    should be pursued. As you realize, new actions in Virginia's legislature
    are not possible until 2008.

    Charles Hawkins
    Let's hope the 2008GA does indeed bring with it legislation to protect this information.

  16. #105
    Distinguished Member Array 4my son's Avatar
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    My posting on the web site, I was on the list, and this yokal really got me mad, I haven't put much about how I feel because I don't want to get Bumper into trouble. here it is. FWIW


    Quote Trejbal “On another note, shouldn't knowledge that you are armed scare away the criminals? That used to be an argument for why people should be allowed to carry, but now it seems that carrying is dangerous somehow. “

    Yes sir you are right, but that’s the point of concealed carry, the criminal now has to guess, and take his chance, if a potential victim is armed or not. Also a primary tactic used by our Federal Air Marshals. Would you print their names and addressees if you got a hold of it? You are a reporter, do some research on the amount of gun violence in Israel, they offered gov’t training and gov’t weapons to private citizens to patrol the schools, and they ADVERTISED that they were doing it, but they didn’t say WHO was armed. This is a country that has forgotten more about fighting terrorism than we could ever hope to know, why don’t you do an article on how effective their policy of Concealed Carry has been. Don’t forget to include the story about the “Soccer Mom” that took down a suicide bomber in a crowded grocery store because she was armed, and that fact was protected. You did mention not having an opinion either way about concealed carry, but it’s far to often, the anti gun bias of the media that propitiates bad laws that hurt real people, whether they were meant to or not. As a reporter, you have the power to reach out to thousands if not more people, along with that comes an awesome level of responsibility, this time your judgment failed, just as easily as you may be “able to save the world” you can destroy it as well, and you may never know the extent of damage caused by this article. I regrettable have no subscription to cancel, so this is my only recourse.

    CHP holder,
    I did list my name for the top of the article.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

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