What to do when your workplace does not allow you to carry?

This is a discussion on What to do when your workplace does not allow you to carry? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; David Armstrong said: "Violate the law? Shame on you for for violating the law. Violate your working agreement? Shame on you for being a liar ...

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Thread: What to do when your workplace does not allow you to carry?

  1. #31
    Member Array triggertime's Avatar
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    David Armstrong said:
    "Violate the law? Shame on you for for violating the law. Violate your working agreement? Shame on you for being a liar and a cheat."
    Gee, David. I suppose that when you drove into work this morning, you made sure that you didn't drive over the speed limit, because thats violating the law. Its also a violation of the agreement you signed when you applied for your drivers license. How's your driving record, David? No violations? If not, shame on you for being a liar and a cheat.

    See how stupid that sounds?

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    David and triggger time lets try not to make it personal No Personal Attacks ..

  4. #33
    Member Array triggertime's Avatar
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    That was not intended to be a personal attack.

    People shouldn't chastise others for violating the law, when they themselves violate the law.

  5. #34
    Member Array nighthawk's Avatar
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    Hey guys this a topic on how to protect yourself even though your not allowed not a class on ethics. I believe the question was what to do when you feel you should carry but are not allowed by law, rule etc.

    Personally, I think you have the right to protect yourself and should take steps to do so. I think it is a very personal decision if you want to put your job or future in jeapordy for something you believe very stongly about. Life is precious and worth protecting. Jobs can be replaced. Only my opinion.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by nighthawk
    Personally, I think you have the right to protect yourself and should take steps to do so. I think it is a very personal decision if you want to put your job or future in jeapordy for something you believe very stongly about. Life is precious and worth protecting. Jobs can be replaced. Only my opinion.
    IMHO, Tis better to be TRIED by 12 than CARRIED by 6!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #36
    Member Array nighthawk's Avatar
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    Amen Brother!

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Armstrong
    Sounds pretty simple to me. When you took the job you agreed to follow their rules in exchange for employment. If you don't want to follow the rules, go get another job. It is the only truly moral and ethical option, IMO. If you feel it is OK to violate the rules you agreed to work under, you should also agree that it is OK for the employer to violate the agreement they have with you. How would you feel about it if you found out that your employer was cheating you out of benefits, pay, perks, or anything else that they had agreed to? Violate the law? Shame on you for for violating the law. Violate your working agreement? Shame on you for being a liar and a cheat.
    This response is a little over the top, and is as someone put it "pretty harsh" for a legitimate question. All of the questions and answers in this thread, up to this point, have been valuable and useful to most people. You might want to back up and read the sticky post (first post in every forum area) about posting....
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  9. #38
    Member Array triggertime's Avatar
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    nighthawk: The point of this discussion is that an individuals personal safety is their personal responsibility. Employers are not obligated to protect you. The Supreme Court has ruled that even the police are not obligated to protect you. So, YOU, must accept that responsibility yourself and do whatever it takes to ensure that you come home alive to your family, your loved ones. If that entails "violating company policy" and jeoparizing your job, then you have to decide what is more important to you, the individual.

    Then you have to examine who you have in your life that depends on you, and how will their life be affected if you happened to be killed because some politically correct hoplophobe who works in employee management didn't want you to carry a gun at work.

    I suppose to some of us, coming home alive is a higher priority than having a job. Jobs can be replaced, life can not.

  10. #39
    Member Array nighthawk's Avatar
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    Triggertime read my post again you just said what I typed. I'm there with you.

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    As long as the law says it is ok, carry and keep quiet.

    My company prohibits any weapons on company property or in company vehicles. Of course this was put into the company handbook after I was hired. Do I carry on company property and in company vehicles? YES.
    Our policies are probably going to get a lot more liberalized as our parent company just got bought out by a huge German corporation. Will I carry then? Yes. I am careful but you know what? Ultimately it is my responsibility to my family to come home at night and live to earn that next paycheck. If that means getting fired at some point for defending my life or being found with the means thereto, well I keep my resume up to date, and I will be working for one of our competitors within a month.

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    David,

    We're going to have to agree to disagree. You tend to look at things a bit too black and white for some of us. Life tends to be shades of gray!

    - As is typical, we are REQUIRED to sign all sorts of forms that state that we've read/agreed to abide by/etc. things that we haven't laid eyes on. It would take a court case, but if all the facts were laid out, one could probably win against companies that do this.

    - When I joined DEC in 1980, 30 or so new hires sit around a room and Personnel hands a bunch of forms for everyone to fill in prior to getting a badge and being led to their new job location. You just want to get thru this BS so you can go to work and earn a paycheck, not play "Philadelphia Lawyer"!

    - The Personnel Policies Manual at the time (1980) had NOTHING about weapons/guns in it. I don't know when, but it was made a policy sometime over the years I was employed there. The basic premise of DEC's policies in 1980 were "do the right thing"! It was something to be proud of, not real restrictive or complicated. At some point, the lawyers took over and the policies became typical of most big companies! So why would one raise a stink on day one and perhaps be terminated as a troublemaker before you even start work? I work for myself now, so I set my own policies!

    - Regular (non-supervisory) employees NEVER even see the Personnel Policies Manual (they have a right to ask to see it, but in 13 years that never happened in the 3 groups I worked in). Only reason I even became aware of it was that I had to deal with some personnel issues from time to time and thus ferreted thru my copy of the manual on those occasions.

    - Again, IANAL, but how can anyone actually expect you to agree in advance to anything that they write in the future, when you are never made aware of the changes when they happen, have no input to the changes, etc. A good lawyer could have a field day with this from a purely legal standpoint. In MA, nobody has a "right to work" so one can be terminated for any reason they want to use (except legally prohibited discrimination issues). So you could win a court case, but you're still out the door unless public embarrassment might overrule the policies.

    So do as you see fit, but don't expect everyone else to agree with your "policies". We all have to follow our own conscious, and accept any consequences for our actions, regardless of any policies!

  13. #42
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    You know David. I get the feeling that you just want to argue, which I admit is trying my patience. I understand several of your points and, personally, can agree with some of them but you seem to have a bit of a problem saying things in a way that doesn't rub everyone raw. If you really DO have a PHD hanging on the wall, I believe you know how to craft your words IN SUCH A WAY THAT they're not quite so inflammatory. If not, I assure you, the rules here will be enforced and they will be enforced according to my interpretation.
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  14. #43
    Member Array mrshonts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Armstrong
    Sure, but not all of life is gray. I'm not at all sure where there is any gray in "no guns allowed to be carried while in the office."
    But in this case where it pertains to me I am not allowed to carry ANY type of weapon. I have a small pocket knife that Betty gave to me as a gift I carry daily but I am able to easily conceal it. The organization I work for has strict rules when it comes to weapons since they have to abide by HIPPA regulations but they don't take into account our own safety issues. I even have clients that carry guns on them who have attempted suicide in the past and my workplace is trying to tell me that I can't protect myself when I'm in their home!! This is something that I am not going to stand for since I believe it is a God given right for me to protect myself and others around me. I would much prefer to get fired from my job knowing I can protect myself rather than talking to a client in their home and have them pull a gun on me, thus ending my life!

  15. #44
    Member Array mrshonts's Avatar
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    What about the rights of your employer to define acceptable behavior in the workplace? You said the rule was based on HIPPA issues, right? Would you consider it OK if other employees were to pick and choose what rules they would follow or not follow based on what they wanted? What if the HR person decided that it was OK for them to distribute all of your employee records to the public? Would that be OK? Or should they have to follow the rules they told you they would follow regarding privacy?
    I understand what you are saying David but what about the 2nd amendment? Why not give those of use responsible enough to carry a weapon to protect ourselves at all times? I understand that I have to follow these rules given to me by the organization I work for but why should I walk into a home knowing that the person sitting across from me is carrying a gun and could pull it out at any point in time and kill me because they are having some manic episode. The kind of work I do takes me to many bad neighborhoods and even when my supervisor was working in the field she had a gun pulled on her once, a knife pulled on her on a few different occasions, a gun fight between two gangs happen right when she was in between it all and someone being stabbed to death right in front of her eyes. And you want to tell me I can't protect myself? I don't work in this field for the money since I can barely pay my bills I do it for the love of knowing that I am changing someone’s life in this world, but I want to be able to protect myself from it all. I'm not saying all of this to try and start a new argument here David, but I just wanted you to see where I was coming from in all of this.


    Sorry if it seems that I have strayed off the original topic but I just felt I had to add my own thoughts in here.

  16. #45
    Member Array triggertime's Avatar
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    David Armstrong said
    "I would suggest it sounds stupid only to someone with a fairly low understanding of moral or ethical standards and/or someone who fails to understand the law."
    David, I could perceive that as an insult, but in your case, I'll ignore it. You know nothing of my moral or ethical standards or of my understanding of the law.

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