I joined and guess what....

This is a discussion on I joined and guess what.... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I can see it from both points of view - the woman has the right to exercise free speech just as the foul-mouthed thugs did, ...

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  1. #91
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    I can see it from both points of view - the woman has the right to exercise free speech just as the foul-mouthed thugs did, and on the other hand, she could've, and should've, kept her mouth shut.

    The problem is you have people getting away with things left and right because nobody ever does anything to challenge them. These thugs go around and say anything they want, no matter who's within earshot - completely classless and crude.

    Another problem is busy-bodies who can't help but butt in and get their point across. These thugs were minding their own business and would've just walked on. Mom can teach her kid that using such language isn't appropriate; the kid is going to be exposed to all sorts of language and other issues, anyway. The kid can't live his entire life locked inside a closet.

    The biggest issue is that this woman is the wife of a carry permit holder. The permit holder has to live by guidelines on what to do and what not to do, because what he does in a situation can mean the death of someone else. One of the basic things we learn as permit holders is to not escalate a situation.

    And here we have a situation that was not our own - a couple guys walking by cursing. Whooptie-do.

    As the wife of the carry permit holder, the woman should have been taught, or known, that anything she says and does while out with her husband can affect what he does. She has to think things through. What could result from her telling off these strangers?

    Was she expecting these guys to hang their heads low and say, "sorry, ma'am?" If these guys are walking by cursing within earshot of everyone, I really doubt it.

    Did she say what she did because she knew she had an armed husband to back her up? If that's the case, there's a serious, serious problem that needs to be sternly addressed immediately. If she did flap her gums because she knew she had backup, she's no better than the thug who struts around showing off his pitbulls.

    The wife is not only the life-partner of the husband, but the tactical partner. She may never carry a gun, but she has to have a similar mindset - for her own safety, for her husband's safety, and for the safety of their child. What she does and how she acts directly affects any scenario that could result in her husband killing a man.

    A spouse should 100% defend the other. But he/she can be prevented with a good measure of respect and common sense from the other, especially in situations easily avoided.

    We have the common sense to not hang out with people we consider tactical liabilities - the hotheaded cousin, the drunk friend, etc. We do that because we know they're magnets for disaster, and we don't want to end up shooting someone because of something aggravated by their stupidity.

    The husband needs to have a long, serious talk with her.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

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  3. #92
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    Betty

    That was about the best & most complete and 100% Perfectly Correct reply to this scenario that a Concealed Carry Forum could ask for or ever expect.
    Thanks.

  4. #93
    Member Array Hoosier's Avatar
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    Yes, well put indeed! And full of good sense. Still, I don't QUITE see it the way that you do.

    I think that a family should be able to go out and buy their child an ice cream cone without it being as though they had taken the child to a bar! We really are not talking about the child spending his whole life locked in a closet: that is hardly the issue here. In other words, does the fact that we can't shield our children from EVERYTHING mean that we shouldn't at least attempt to shield them from ANYTHING. Or that we should be silent as every single inch of our world is turned into crudeness.

    Another difference between us is that I lived through all the changes in our society: judging from your picture, you just inherited them. So, how did they happen, you may ask? My memory is this: by people speaking up--sometimes with a little comment, and sometimes in stronger terms. And so, that is the only way some measure of sanity can be RESTORED.

    "What could result from her telling off these strangers?"
    A step in making the world a better place!

    Was she expecting these guys to hang their heads low and say, "sorry, ma'am?"
    Betty, it was really not very long ago when that is EXACTLY what would have happened. I'm not talking about Victorian times: I'm just talking of a few years ago (in historical terms): indeed, it still happens even today! But it would happen a LOT more--and immediately-- if every one of us stopped being afraid to speak up. If everybody looked in disapproval.

    We shouldn't escalate a situation? Really? How about that guy in Walmart who SHOT the man STABBING the woman: was that not an escalation of sorts? A rape is not as serious as a killing: but who among us would not unhesitatingly kill if necessary to prevent a rape?

    Some how, at the end of our days, I don't think we will be judged over whether we did not escalate, but (in part) whether we were willing to stand up for something other than our convenience...to make the world a better place.

    Thank God I live in a "stand your ground" state. I would never knowingly do anything to provoke violence: but objecting to crude behavior in front of women and children is not provoking violence. It is doing what is right.

    In such a situation, the only violence would come from the thug being a thug. If he is going to beat a woman--who is with a child, for God's sake!--for speaking the truth in a public ICE CREAM STORE, just imaging what he does in a dark place without witnesses! What the jury would say if it came to violence, I don't know: but I do know what I would say if I was on the jury.

    That said, I again think your points were very well taken. ALMOST without exception... LOL

  5. #94
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    There was nothing wrong with speaking up againt their rude behaviour. The rude individulas were the ones who were aggressive and escelated the situation into a confrontation with the possibility of violence, not the lady who chastized them.

    As I read the situation, while it would have been safer to hold your tounge speaking out was not illegal or aggressive. Reacting to THEIR aggresive reaction was also OK.

    I would have remained calm in this situation, but (if my wife chose to speak her mind) I also wouldn't have backed down.

    Having said that, my wife definitely wouldn't have done that.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  6. #95
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    Having said that, my wife definitely wouldn't have done that.
    Tank - I doubt my wife would have verbalized - but being a ''spirited gal'' - I have a feeling she just might have pointed at the sun - with just one finger! LOL

    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  7. #96
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    We shouldn't escalate a situation? Really? How about that guy in Walmart who SHOT the man STABBING the woman: was that not an escalation of sorts? A rape is not as serious as a killing: but who among us would not unhesitatingly kill if necessary to prevent a rape?
    Don't compare escalating a situation over a couple foul mouths guys to the life and death defense of a third party of a woman being raped or stabbed. Keep putting non-situations on the same level of life and death situations, you've not only made cursing a shooting offense, but degraded a woman's rape on the same level as those thugs walking around cursing.

    It would indeed be a dandy day when today's thugs would hang their heads low and say, "sorry ma'am." But in today's world, we have people shooting each other and flying into rages over seemingly nothing. Little things explode into murder these days. That doesn't mean we have to live and fear and get run over by everybody, it means we have to weigh what is worth opening our mouths to and risking proper escalation of force over.

    Being a carry permit holder doesn't mean you're the Mighty Avenging Social Taboo Upholder. It means you walk softly and carry a big gun. You only draw when you or a third party is in imminent danger of being harmed, and as a permit holder, you do your best to not put yourself there if you are able to avoid and de-escalate. And yes, that means sucking in righteous pride and walking away when some thug says Your Mama Wears Combat Boots. When the dust settles, you have to be able to tell a judge and jury that you did everything to avoid trouble.

    Making the world a rosy-red better place is something all sensible people would like to do, but it's not a matter of what we'd like to do. It's a matter of what we legally have to do as a permit holder.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  8. #97
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    I think the new issue of CCM is officially out 23rd according to Maria - tho haven't got mine yet - hoping tomorrow. However - how's a bout a sneak preview eh?

    Back in late June I took some pics of my step-daughter - and one of these is this month's cover pic. I am somewhat pleased needless to say - thanks due almost entirely to having a very pretty young lady to model for me.

    She is wearing a K&D Holsters Belt Defender - set up on left side for cross draw, and containing the Rohrbaugh R9.



    Well it's CLEAR who got all the LOOKS in the family! Don't feel bad, my daughter (step) looks a bit like Brittany Spears. I was so glad to have taught her how to defend herself with her hands first and later with weapons. I never really worried about her getting raped...by force. I was always worried somebody would slip her a date rape drug and then things would get ugly....because it'd be a race to see who could get to the punk first: ME or one of my numerous and deadly friends or her grandfather, the WWII fighter ace with 17 kills and a navy cross under his belt. But, I raised her right and she stayed with the same beau she had all thru college and they were married last year.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #98
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    she stayed with the same beau she had all thru college and they were married last year.
    That's great Ex - and kudos for the training you gave her.

    I like it when guys take responsibility for their own safety but even more so when I know of ladies who do.

    As for the looks in the family - yep, she wins - tho I do know she got some of those looks from my dear wife who's looks of course I rather like too! Me - just call me Mr Fugly!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  10. #99
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    There is a basic misunderstanding here. What I am putting on the same level as a rape is a group of men beating a woman--possibly to death--outside an ice cream store in front of her child. And I stand by that.

    The husband did not show the gun to stop the cursing. She did not grab a gun to stop the cursing. The ONLY response to the cursing (words) was that she objected strainously (words). The gun did not enter into this at all!

    As I understand it, the gun ONLY became a factor when the husband became affraid that his wife was going to be physically attacked by a group of men for using words objecting to their use of words. If not--if there really was no danger of attack--then he was clearly wrong. But if so, the gun had nothing at all to do with the cursing: it only had to do with a group of men who seemed to be threatening serious physical injury or death to a woman who was where she had a legal right to be, and doing what she had a legal right to do.

    ASSUMING that the gun was only showed to prevent violent attack (and not to stop cursing!), then there may be two issues remaining: one which has nothing at all to do with guns, and one which does concern carrying.

    1. The issue which does not concern guns is broad--and we won't resolve it here! It goes to such issues as: What kind of society do we want to live in? What kind of society is possible? Is there a proper innocence in young children which should be protected by all? How should we treat women and mothers? Are social taboos always repressive hangups, or are they sometimes a necessary part of having a life worth living? What are our responsibilities as citizens? What is the meaning of life? What Judge is it that we most want to satisfy? And so on.

    I will only make a few brief comments on this issue:

    - We all have first principles upon which we base our life: they are what our life stands for. (Increasingly, they are not thought out, and are by default...)

    - This is a concealed weapons forum: it is natural that a certain bias would be present.

    - For some, carrying--and the various doctrines surrounding that practice--have become their first prinicples: that to which everything else in life is subordinate, and must yeild. Just keep in mind that some of us who have carried without any problem for many years, and love guns, and yet have other first principles when we make decisions.

    - Carrying is inconvenient: so why bother? We do it because we have a greater appreciation of the evil in the world--the worse case senario is very real to us. But, that tends to distort our view of life. In fact, there are some pretty scruffy looking characters who really do appologize and say "ma'am." Perhaps they didn't notice the car with the child and the mother. Perhaps they had gotten careless. Perhaps, they really hadn't thought about that issue in a while. And it is that same bias that might cause us to be unable to imagine that our society could be any different if we all did our part: I'm not talking of some mythical Camalot; I'm talking the what the world has been during most periods of civilization in the past, and will be again during most periods of civilization in the future. The world is really not such a terrible place as we sometimes imagine it.

    2. Why do we carry? Let me immediately discard two extremes:

    - We all realize that we are not police officers, and we all realize that we are not authorized by ANY authority to USE OUR WEAPONS to in an effort to Make Everything Right.

    - None of use carry our weapons SOLEY for our own benefit and protection. None of us would leave our families to die because our only concern was our own personal safety.

    But there is a lot of middle ground between those two extremes over which we will differ, and the basis of the disagreements probably go back to issue #1--our first principles.

    This point deserves more development than I'll do right now. Just one very brief illustration.

    When the man in Texas shot the man who was beating him in his car after than man had causing a minor accident, the anti-gun types said, "See! We told you this would happen!" The sponsor of the law said that this was what he had in mind when he proposed the law: it would make drivers real polite like. Most of Texas was closer to the legislator than the anti-gun types. We really don't want to live in a society we are seriously beaten by a man who has just caused damage to our car. Now, what about the man who did the shooting? Although he did get off, it was not always clear that that would be the case, and he had to pay a lot of legal costs. So what do we think about that? We will not all completely agree.

    Getting back to the case in question: is it legitimate that we who carry (or our spouses) could ever do anything WHICH ALL UNARMED CITIZENS SHOULD DO, and which is perfectly proper and legal, but which most do not do...because they are afraid of a criminal response to a legal and proper action? The answer to that really is not to be found in this forum it depends upon our first principles.

    When the dust settles, you have to be able to tell a judge and jury that you did everything to avoid trouble...It's a matter of what we legally have to do as a permit holder.
    It appears that these are your first pricinples: they are not everybodies.

    It really is not the case that permit holders are always found guilty for defending themselves from a criminal response to a perfectly legal action. We do not give up our freedom of speach by carrying a gun.

    Despite our agreement on most of what you have said, concerning some issues we will have to agree to disagree. What I HAVE to do has nothing to do with a judge or jury. And, doing what I HAVE to do has never gotten me in any trouble with the law in these many years of life on this earth...nor do I expect it to.
    Last edited by Hoosier; September 17th, 2005 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Typo

  11. #100
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    Hoosier - you state your case and thoughts well.

    For sure, even tho we share common ground here there will never be full agreement on all aspects. We are a choir but not always playing exactly the same tune

    That is fine - and actually refreshing but at root level I might daresay we are pretty much in accord.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  12. #101
    Member Array Hoosier's Avatar
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    but at root level I might daresay we are pretty much in accord.
    Indeed! Isn't funny, you agree on 95%, but sometimes you find that it is the 5% that you discuss. But don't ever go to a forum where you all agree with 99%: the discussion on the remaining 1% can be the most vicious you'll ever see.
    :chairshot

    The discussion on this site is wonderfully civil and reasonable...and did I mention "civil"?

  13. #102
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    LOL!
    I agree with a great deal of what ends up on this board. However, there are certain topics I have learned NOT to discuss. I have asked what I felt were a couple of valid questions on here, and got flamed for it. That has been the exception to the rule, but still a fair amount of viciousness still lurks in the background.

  14. #103
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    I'm thinking that I agree more with Hoosier on this. If I (and my family & friends) have to give up 1st Amendment rights in order to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights, then nothing has been gained and much has been lost.

    My understanding of the law is that so long as I don't utter "fighting words" (a legal definition) and don't commit assault or battery, appropriately responding to the threat of violence is legal. I'm not a lawyer, but I've had a lot of exposure to the niceities of the law on this subject by studying martial arts for 25 years and seeing the experiences of others.

  15. #104
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    He, his wife and his child stopped for some ice cream. While they were in their vehicle eating it, some men came by using foul language. Well, his wife just had to give them a piece of her mind. They, of course, reacted and he had to intervene. When the men saw his gun they took off..... In the article, he describes how he got out of the car and then put the gun in his belt "Mexican".
    From what I understand (having not read the article, but the summary in the initial post), the permit holder and family were secured in their vehicle with the men outside. Were the men trying to get in and at the wife, or were they verbally berating her from outside? From the summary, it appears they weren't trying to enter the vehicle. If I'm mistaken and the men had opened the door and grabbed the wife and the husband was unable to start the engine and get out of there, or they were drawing weapons, than the man's response in drawing his weapon was justified. And then it's described the permit holder gets out of his car to confront the men. Was he unable to get a clear shot across his wife at the men who were trying to get in at her (if the men were getting in and dragging her out) and so he had to step outside? From the summary, it appears not. He exited his vehicle and repositioned his gun Mexican carry. If the situation was so life-threatening, why did he place the gun in his waistband?

    If all they were doing was cursing back at her, he brandished his gun. He had improper force escalation and he broke the law. If a couple guys standing outside your secure tank of a vehicle cursing at you is on the same force escalation level with a woman being raped and beaten, there's something very wrong with the picture here. We've made cursing into a shooting offense.

    As stated earlier, permit holders are supposed to evade and de-escalate. We can continue to associate with those who insist on giving their two cents worth to total strangers and be party to the results of their actions, or stay away from them and advise those we love. Many have chosen the former and others, like myself, the latter. Our results will vary.

    As for your idea of making the world a better place, Hoosier, this world should be made a better place where people show common decency and respect. It starts at Day One with a newborn baby and how the parents raise that baby. You're right - I "inherited" the problems. I inherited the problems of many generations of other people's incompetance, ignorance and apathy, and I experience the results of that often. How am I going to make the world a better place? By raising my family with the same solid morals and values that my parents raised me with.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  16. #105
    Member Array Hoosier's Avatar
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    Darn! Maybe we're just going to have to break down and read the article! (Which may, or may not, have sufficient detail to make a really informed judgement.)

    I don't think it's so easy to do: I've just joined the organization, and thus subscribed to the magazine, but of course the magazines haven't started coming yet...

    I got hooked into the discussion--as did you--by the comments of others (mentioning that I hadn't read the article): I was horrified by the idea of driving off without the wife/mother. (Yes, I'm projecting: I would never even think of doing so with my wife...but I'm blessed with a wonderful life partner.)

    I had envisioned the wife getting out of the car to say her piece, because...well, because that is the only way it made any sense to me for the husband to get out of the car. But, you're right, we cannot assume that he did the right thing--getting a CC permit does not automatically inject wisdom...and we all do something dumb from time to time (just to keep in practice).

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