Holding at gun point - Page 2

Holding at gun point

This is a discussion on Holding at gun point within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sure, shoot him. Now prepare for your new room mate.......Bubba by name....

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Thread: Holding at gun point

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
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    Arrow Bubba

    Sure, shoot him. Now prepare for your new room mate.......Bubba by name.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!


  2. #17
    New Member Array JimT's Avatar
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    I certainly agree with most of what has been said. Disarm him and get him to lay on the ground. If he can be restrained by a couple people without any threats of physical violance, fine. The one big problem is standing over him with your gun drawn may very well get you shot by arriving police as they're not sure who you are and what you are about to do with a gun drawn on a person. Best thing to do is put your gun away and back away from the BG and if he wants to run, then he has a free trip out fo there. The threat to you has long since been over.

  3. #18
    Member Array The Goose's Avatar
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    OK, I have a different take, but I usually get these tactical exercises wrong. How do I get the drop on an armed robber with his gun already drawn? Man that sounds pretty dangerous right there.
    I realize there are a million variables in a situation like the one described, but I have trouble seeing many situations where I would draw on an armed opponent and not shoot.
    If I believed that that the bad guy was truly an immediate life threatening threat then I would shoot him not tell to him freeze or something. If the guy was trying to get away I say let him go. If I do not believe he is going to kill me or someone else then I lay back and pray like crazy.
    I carry a gun to protect my life or someone elses life. I am not an LEO. I have no obligation to intervene or protect property, so if I draw on an armed opponent then I am shooting. When I took the basic pistol course here in MA to get my permit and in subsequent concealed carry classes that I have taken it was stressed that the only time I can legally draw my gun is if I truly believe I am about to die. The law is not written exactly that way, but that pretty much sums it up. Other states may be different.
    Regardless, from a tactical standpoint why would I draw on an armed opponent and not shoot? I ask the question sincerely not critically. I have stood in line at a cash register and played out the scenario in my mind. What if the guy ahead of me pulls out a gun and demands money? He is yelling, pointing the gun at the cashier and then at us folks in line. I don't know if he will shoot or not. If and when would I make a move? I know one thing, if I had to move, and could, I am shooting not talking. I am not holding anyone at gun point for the cops to arrive. In fact I hope the guy just runs like hell, works for me.
    Like I said I usually get these tactical exercises wrong so feel free to show me how I am wrong, I'm used to it and I usually learn something. LOL!

  4. #19
    Member Array mchasal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Goose
    Regardless, from a tactical standpoint why would I draw on an armed opponent and not shoot? I ask the question sincerely not critically.
    The reason you would draw and not shoot is if your newly presented firearm convinces the BG to change his behaviour. You have to assess the situation and not just start shooting. If you draw and the BG turns tail and runs you should not fire or your bullets in his back will not bode well for you in court.

    Mike

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Prospector's Avatar
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    Red face

    This is straying a little from the starting scenario...that is, you've already drawn your gun and the bad guy hits the floor...blah blah blah. However, kinda pickin up with GOOSE on this, there are a lot of variables to determine whether or not you'd even present your firearm during an armed robbery.

    My CCW class put us in a bank situation, with not a lot, but several customers, when a BG (just one) announces the holdup. Now, given some facts that most Bank Holdups these days don't involve anybody getting shot, you've got to think about 1) is your life in immediate risk 2) what are chances of third party getting shot if you do confront the BG....we opted for not pulling our weapon because his gun was not pointed at "me" threatening to kill, and two, because there were many others that might get hit with a stray shot, it was probably best to let this one take the money and run.

    Having said that, that is a bank scenario....the local convenience store holdup is usually a more violent event...probably save this one for another scenario!!

  6. #21
    Member Array bubbygator's Avatar
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    Regardless, from a tactical standpoint why would I draw on an armed opponent and not shoot?
    I am of the same general mind - except for me there is no "tactical" standpoint, there is only lethal threat->draw->target->fire! Some might perhaps say I am remiss in not considering all the possible variable of the situation, but I am NOT a LEO (or a soldier); I am a civilian armed solely for self-defense in accordance with existing civilian laws.

  7. #22
    Member Array mchasal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubbygator
    I am of the same general mind - except for me there is no "tactical" standpoint, there is only lethal threat->draw->target->fire! Some might perhaps say I am remiss in not considering all the possible variable of the situation, but I am NOT a LEO (or a soldier); I am a civilian armed solely for self-defense in accordance with existing civilian laws.
    I'll reiterate what I said before, if you don't assess the situation somewhere between draw and fire, and the bad guy has dropped his gun, knife, bat, and is throwing his hands up in the air, and you still shoot him. You will be in a world of trouble, especially if the BG survives or if there are witnesses.

    The justification to shoot can come about in an instant, but it can also go away in an instant. If the presence of your weapon make the BG change his ways, there is no longer a lethal threat and you are no longer defending your life.

    Mike

  8. #23
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    The answer whether you can shoot has been answered by all correctly, I do know a knee to the back of the neck upper thoracic vert column area will keep most at bay as it is not comfy in the slightest.

    Tiem to stir the pot up a bit; Next question, do you threaten to shoot if he moves??? What would that constitute???

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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prospector
    Yep, what ACParmed said. I guess this also brings up another item to stow in the ole "equipment bag".....wire ties !

    I wouldn't recommend attempting to cuff or zip tie someone unless ya have been trained how to. Distance from the BG is your friend.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
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    Having had some cuffing training, let me put it this way....you go ahead, I'll wait here.

    One person is not going to cuff anyone that does not want to be cuffed if the cuffee is consicous.

    So he runs off....great!
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

  11. #26
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    Red face

    Well, since I live in an area of the country where 400+ lb. good ole citizens reside in vast quantities, I naturally assumed that there would be enough of them in the bank to either sit on the BG til he was cuffed, or threaten to sit on the BG til he was cuffed....he already "volunteered" to lay down his weapon! LOL!!

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    I spent Friday evening covering this topic for real in the wild after witnessing an aggravated battery and felony in progress. I didn't hold the suspect once I got the individual being attacked to safety, and still spent three hours with the police.

  13. #28
    Member Array mchasal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prospector
    Well, since I live in an area of the country where 400+ lb. good ole citizens reside in vast quantities, I naturally assumed that there would be enough of them in the bank to either sit on the BG til he was cuffed, or threaten to sit on the BG til he was cuffed....he already "volunteered" to lay down his weapon! LOL!!
    He only layed down the weapon that you know about. Once someone is within arms reach, he may pull out a knife or he may even have another gun. You may have given him an opportunity to take a hostage, he may then make you give him YOUR gun or he'll kill his hostage, what do you do then?
    <KEANU>Whoa! I shoot the hostage in the leg and then the bad guy in the head.</KEANU>

    As has been said, it is not your duty to make sure the BG goes to jail, or even that he gets caught. The only duty, and in most states, the only right, you have is to defend yourself and maybe those around you. At this point, you have done that. If the BG is smart enough, or happens to be reading this thread, he may just say, "Nope, I'm not going to lie down, I'll see you later" and walk out the door. I suppose he wouldn't even have to drop his gun. Just stop pointing it at you. If he just stuck his gun back in his pants and walked away, you would probably not be justified to take any further action.

    Let the BG do what he wants, as long as he is no longer a threat, and be a good witness.

    Mike

  14. #29
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    I suppose he wouldn't even have to drop his gun. Just stop pointing it at you. If he just stuck his gun back in his pants and walked away, you would probably not be justified to take any further action.
    This does present a problem!! IMO if BG still has actual possession of a firearm - whether pointed at you or not - he is still a potential lethal threat! He could bring that gun into play in an instant.

    I think here it more likely that if the gun was not originally surrendered (following issuance of a command) then the BG is pretty much a danger and open season applies! Sorry - gun in BG's hand - severe threat level. If placed in belt - still threat, just reduced. I can't see cops waiting to find out if he is or isn't gonna shoot, when gun still in his possession - I wouldn't want to either.

    As far as BG on floor etc - yeah - as many have said, distance is your friend. Maybe, if someone else on hand - then perhaps - organize restraints.... but as also has been brought up, not knowing what other weapons on his person.
    Chris - P95
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  15. #30
    Senior Member Array Prospector's Avatar
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    Red face

    Sorry folks, but I've got an extreme hatred of BGs...period. And although I'm no LEO, I feel a basic obligation to assist in any manner possible the apprehension or death of a BG...I still remember the story of the New York woman raped and killed while everyone just sat in their windows and watched. Obviously this scenario isn't the same....but, the common thread is that it's a BG. If nobody else will assist in this scenario, then yes, I'm willing to maintain a vigilance on the BG....perhaps not trying to wire-tie/cuff em, but keep the individual down on the ground, if possible, with verbal orders and the threat of being shot if he doesn't....if he gets up, hands where I can see em, and walks out, then fine....I'll follow the BG into hopefully a less risky area of collateral damage, but I will not allow him to escape. I'm not John Wayne and I don't subscribe to vigilantism....but I do believe I have a moral responsibility to help maintain a safe environment to live in and that means getting involved when sometimes you'd rather not. That way of thinking allowed me to save a man's life 3 yrs ago next month....I could have driven on and let him die. Don't relish the thoughts of going to prison, but I would do whatever necessary, given the present circumstances.

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