Holding at gun point - Page 3

Holding at gun point

This is a discussion on Holding at gun point within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by P95Carry This does present a problem!! IMO if BG still has actual possession of a firearm - whether pointed at you or ...

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Thread: Holding at gun point

  1. #31
    Member Array mchasal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    This does present a problem!! IMO if BG still has actual possession of a firearm - whether pointed at you or not - he is still a potential lethal threat! He could bring that gun into play in an instant.
    True, he is a potential lethal threat, but that potential threat doesn't give you the right to fire. If he doesn't draw or raise his gun and walks out the door, I don't think you would be in good shape if you were to fire. You probably would be justified to keep your gun out, but firing in that situation is just going to get you in trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    I think here it more likely that if the gun was not originally surrendered (following issuance of a command) then the BG is pretty much a danger and open season applies! Sorry - gun in BG's hand - severe threat level. If placed in belt - still threat, just reduced. I can't see cops waiting to find out if he is or isn't gonna shoot, when gun still in his possession - I wouldn't want to either.
    Again, if the BG has stopped threatening to harm you, the lethal threat is gone and so is your right to fire. If the BG holstered his gun and said "OK buddy, you got me, I'll be going" there is just no lethal threat there anymore. Now, if he were to say something like "As soon as you turn your head, I'm going to shoot you" it might be a different story.

    If you think of it as if he were running away from you, it clarifies things. If the BG turned tail and ran when you drew and commanded him to lie down, you wouldn't be justified to shoot whether or not he dropped his gun. He's disengaged from his lethal action against you, and you have to as well.

    You really can't use what a LEO would do as guidance as they are regulated by an entirely different set of rules than the armed citizen is.

    Mike
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  2. #32
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    Despite what has been said, which is all good, if I had access to cuffs (which is very doubtful) and I believe I could get it done without risk to myself or others I would cuff him. If nothing else toss them to him (or at him) and make him put them on himself. I have no responsibility to do it, nor do I have a desire to "play cop" but I will make an effort to see that he remains there for the police.
    Bumper
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  3. #33
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    Bumper - trouble with the cuffing deal is, if you tell him to cuff himself - he might just as well flip you the bird!

    ''Whadya gonna do - shoot me?'' .... at which point he flips another bird and saunters away!
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    ''Whadya gonna do - shoot me?'' .... at which point he flips another bird and saunters away!
    Possibly :chairshot
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Let him go.

    Become a good witness and let the police do their jobs. It's not worth taking a life.

  6. #36
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    Hmm, if I draw my gun, I'd most likely pull the trigger a split second later. But in the event I don't, he'd better take my voice commands to heart, or he will get shot! He was/is armed, he commited a felony, HE IS A THREAT! And he will continue to be one until he's been cuffed and searched.

    Handcuffing? Not without somebody to cover him. And NEVER with a wire tie. That's why they make special "flexcuffs". Wire ties WILL NOT HOLD HIM! Even the big ones aren't that strong. I carry handcuffs daily, but even if I didn't, I'd never bother with wire ties. They're just not made for that and would only tend to give a false sense of security.

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  7. #37
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    You could use piano wire...

  8. #38
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    never put away your gun until the threat is neutralized and you have scanned and made sure there are no other threats or when ordered to by a police officer.

    Just because the guy tossed his gun and assumed the position doen't mean he won't hop on you if he thinks he has a chance. As long as you still feel threatened you can hold at gunpoint.

  9. #39
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlPMann
    Hmm, if I draw my gun, I'd most likely pull the trigger a split second later. But in the event I don't, he'd better take my voice commands to heart, or he will get shot! He was/is armed, he commited a felony, HE IS A THREAT! And he will continue to be one until he's been cuffed and searched.

    Handcuffing? Not without somebody to cover him. And NEVER with a wire tie. That's why they make special "flexcuffs". Wire ties WILL NOT HOLD HIM! Even the big ones aren't that strong. I carry handcuffs daily, but even if I didn't, I'd never bother with wire ties. They're just not made for that and would only tend to give a false sense of security.

    Karl.
    Gotta disagree on the strength of the big ties...arms are skin and bone, not steel pipe....you put those suckers on very snug, and any twisting will tend to cut skin....let the guy bleed to death for all I care, but they'll definitely slow down to an extreme any free movement. Add to that the verbal threat of blowing the SOB's brains out if he makes a move, and I would guess that unless he's on PCP, he'll do what he's told....if he breaks free then blow his brains out....he's still considered a dangerous felon....period.

  10. #40
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    Unless they changed how wire ties are made, they do work pretty darned well. We carried them in the PD and I never heard of anyone ever breaking them (not that it has never happened). Interestingly enough I have heard of someone breaking a pair of stainless handcuffs in Denver, but I suspect that was a defect in that particular pair of cuffs.
    Bumper
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  11. #41
    Member Array KarlPMann's Avatar
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumper
    Unless they changed how wire ties are made, they do work pretty darned well. We carried them in the PD and I never heard of anyone ever breaking them (not that it has never happened). Interestingly enough I have heard of someone breaking a pair of stainless handcuffs in Denver, but I suspect that was a defect in that particular pair of cuffs.


    That was my point. What you (your PD) carried was not wire ties. They were Flex Cuffs. Same thing, just a hair stronger. Nowadays, they're more specialized too. But if I only had wire ties, I'd use them. I'm just saying, they're not really made for this. They can be broken, so just don't get too close, and don't let your guard down just because he has them on. Karl.
    Happiness is a warm UZI.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlPMann
    That was my point. What you (your PD) carried was not wire ties. They were Flex Cuffs. Same thing, just a hair stronger. Nowadays, they're more specialized too. But if I only had wire ties, I'd use them. I'm just saying, they're not really made for this. They can be broken, so just don't get too close, and don't let your guard down just because he has them on. Karl.
    Well, actually, in 1990 when I left the reserves, they were using wire ties, not Flex Cuffs. The whole idea of using them was just catching on (at least in Denver) and we carried them for backups only when you were holding more people than you had handcuffs. With the big wire ties, there's not many that can break them with using something to cut them on and before they were allowed that opportunity they were searched and lined up like little soldiers on the curb. While I don't still practice cuffing techniques, in most cases I am still confident I could still handcuff someone without too much trouble. Especially someone that is already on the ground already. If you haven't had that particular training you probably wouldn't want to try it, but in some cases, I would.
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    I too will have to disagree with you on the wire ties Karl. I weigh 240lbs and I have been supported by one of the 3/16" one before. Unless they are the cheapies anything 1/4"+ should at least slow them down a LOT.
    Would I try to put them on the bg? NO way!! If he lays there he lays there. If he gets up and runs away while keeping his hands in plain site and no becoming a threat again, I will not like it but I will let him go.

    If he gets up and starts toward me then all bets are off.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prospector
    I guess this also brings up another item to stow in the ole "equipment bag".....wire ties !
    And, if the BG isn't convicted, YOU can now be charged with kidnapping or at the very least, unlawful restraint. Don't laugh, it's happened before.
    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
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  15. #45
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Puppage
    And, if the BG isn't convicted, YOU can now be charged with kidnapping or at the very least, unlawful restraint. Don't laugh, it's happened before.
    Under the circumstances of the scenario given, I'd take my chances.

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