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Stopped by police

This is a discussion on Stopped by police within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It depends what type of attitude the officer exhibts at the traffic stop. If they are jerks they get it right back and I'll pay ...

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  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array Stetson's Avatar
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    It depends what type of attitude the officer exhibts at the traffic stop.
    If they are jerks they get it right back and I'll pay the fine or if they
    are professional I'll reveal and hope for a break.


  2. #47
    Member Array American Pit Bull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Do what you want, and roll the dice if you wish.
    No dice here... The risk, if any at all, is just as high by telling the LEO in advance that you have a gun in the car. The Rookie cop drawing down scenarios and the likes can be played out many times over.

    I can only speak for myself, but when I am carrying concealed, it is concealed. I am very cordial and I follow all proper traffic stop procedures. I do not enter another variable into the equation unnecessarily.

    I also do not usually inform my LEO friends that I am carrying, because they just assume that I am always armed.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    The best answer to all of this is simply just don't get stopped by the police. I haven't been pulled over since about 1992, and intend on keeping it that way. Then you get to avoid the situation all together and you don't have to worry about cocky cops or whether your state requires you to tell them or what ever else you have concerns about.

    My stance is still to follow Texas law and provide them my drivers license, CHL, and insurance paperwork up front. If they ask if I am carrying after providing them with my CHL, I will tell them and it will go from there based on how they want to proceed with the stop. I understand that we all have rights, but I also understand that they have a job to do and get paid by taxpayers to do their job. It isn't my job to make their life more difficult by being an ass myself.

    In Texas if a peace officer feels like disarming you during the stop they have every right to do so according to the law. I don't intend on giving them a reason to have to do that. I see no benefit for anyone in those situations.

    If the officer does something during the stop you don't agree with, wait till the stop is over, and drive to the juristiction office and make a complaint to their supervisor, captain or whomever you feel needs to know about the misconduct. I don't think your going to get very far by addressing the person that acted in a manner unacceptable, probably just cause more problems as the situation escalates.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  4. #49
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    I just went over 20 years as a cop in February and to this day if (when) I'm stopped the first words out of my mouth to the officer/deputy/trooper is "Sir I am carrying a weapon". It is an officer safety issue and if your dont tell them and the LEO or theri partner spot the weapon, or a hint that your carrying (traits that stand out) the first words you'll hear are "GUN". Its always better for them to know up front. You might rarely run into an over the top officer who wants to take the weapon from you but 99% of the time you'll end up getting a break because in the minds of most officers I have known over the years its a + in your corner. I can say that in my 15 years on patrol, I never have heard a CCL check on the radio followed by a citation issued. Typically its more like....kewl what do ya carry?

    Your call, but even if its not required by your states law, in my opinion its a better way to deal with it.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

  5. #50
    Member Array 1911shooter's Avatar
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    like i said before i dont tell them unless they ask and if they do i tell them what and where it is other then that just because he's an LEO dont mean squat to me.... i have been on their side so dont give me that argument.... unless i'm required by the law then its none of his business........ sorry if i offened you current LEO's
    When the dust settles only the prepared will survive.

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    remember the only thing common about common sense is that its not that common

    Shoot low boys their riding Shetland ponies.

  6. #51
    Member Array RTC1911's Avatar
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    I'm not going to state a confirmed "pro or con" posture to the question of tell/don't tell because both sides have legit foundations. My own handling methodology is kept fluidic and variable and boils down, as some have pointed out, to simple "common sense" - as dictated by the circumstances, which of course includes compliance with the laws of whatever state you are in where the traffic stop or official LEO interaction occurs.

    I'd just like to pose a rhetorical question in response to a member's post re "what's the big deal" and "what's the harm" in "informing the LEO that I'm armed" ? I think it noteworthy to point out the same type of question from the opposing, opposite side of the fence.

    Let's presume the stop occurs in a state where informing the LEO is NOT mandatory by statute and his systems-check in advance of pull-over don't include CCW license issuance history.

    Firstly, the potential hassle that can arise for the motorist is that the LEO obviously must, and does, keep "control" of the situation throughout the entire scenario of interaction. If we presume the officer to be well-trained and competent, and he has not thought it wise and proper to pose the question himself, then he has not evidenced that the answer to said question is a high concern of his at the moment. If he does ask, then obviously, tell the truth.

    If he doesn't ask, and you voluntarily inform, if the LEO's personal philosophy is adamantly and seriously anti-CCW for private citizens, then the resultant demeanor and outcome for the motorist may appreciably worsen. You might ask, "What is the 'harm'?" The simple answer is, no motorist needs - or deserves - any additional "hassle" or negative handling & treatment simply by virtue of the fact that he is CCW in 100% compliance with applicable laws. As someone else stated, (if I'm wrong) "give me my ticket and let me be on my merry way".

    Now let's turn the question around, just for discussion's sake. If I'm traffic-stopped, the LEO doesn't know if I'm a murderous felon or peacably law-abiding. I'd expect him to lend equal 50-50 weight to either possibility. In other words, he will fall back on his training and be as watchful and alert as he feels he needs to be. In other words, it is my own actions moreso than my words or statements that should dictate his responsive actions concerning his perceived need to protect his own safety. He will not expect the murderous felon to volunteer that they are armed. He should, I would expect, presume that everyone he stops may be armed. If he hasn't popped the question, then it's indicative to me that he's suffciiently enough at ease that's it's not a primary concern. I will insure that my actions and statements give him zero reasons for any additional personal safety concerns. Via the usual: Ignition turned off, dome light on if dark out, front & rear tinted windows rolled down beforehand so LEO can easily see inside rear & front seats during their initial walk-up approach to the vehicle, hands on steering wheel in plain sight, if reach-motions are necessary to retrieve wallet-license-insurance card, verbally announce intended motions before initiating any physical actions, etc. etc. For most people in non-open-carry CCW states, firearm will presumably be worn, fully covered and concealed by a covering garment, in right-side hip holster, pocket, ankle or shoulder holster. As in, visually "unmade" and undetected even if LEOs are outside on both sides of the vehicle. If the LEO has been unconcerned enough to NOT pose the question, and I have for some reason elected to not voluntarily inform thus far, I WOULD voluntarily inform if I am requested or ordered to EXIT my vehicle - because that changes the whole equation for LEO safety from their standpoint since I'm no longer confined and seat-belt-restrained inside my vehicle.

    Otherwise, if we presume a "routine" traffic stop (conceding that they're never truly "routine" at all) involving a simple traffic citation issuance for a typical run-of-the-mill traffic infraction, if I am a lawful citizen legally CCW who would never ever pose any kind of personal safety threat or hazard to the LEO, what is the "harm" done to the LEO by NOT voluntarily informing that I'm armed in a state that doesn't by statute require me to do so? Once again, "simply give me my ticket and we'll both be on our merry way".

    IMHO, the implied premise that I am doing some kind of disservice or "harm" to the LEO by not informing seems unfounded. I DO agree that it might be common sense and wise to do so, but let's not lose sight of the fact that it is neither my legal duty, obligation or job to make the LEO's job easier for him or her or put and keep them at complete ease at my own potential hassle-expense. If I'm a law-abiding citizen and pose no overt threat, the LEO should be sufficiently enough "at ease" throughout the entire interaction to be and remain professional & appropriate in demeanor, maintain command and control of the situation at all times sufficiently enough to keep his own self at ease, with the end result that the interaction in entirety WILL in fact be nothing more than a "routine traffic stop" for any and all involved parties - myself included. One legit reason for not informing might be, for example, if I'm pulled over by some 21-year old nervous-looking newbie fresh out of the Academy and newly on the streets. I don't know his level of knowledge, skill, training or expertise in handling MY make-model of firearm and I sure as heck am a mite reluctant to surrender handling & control of it to anyone else - even an LEO - NEEDLESSLY. The lawful order to do so creates need of immediate compliance. I'm not gonna unnecessarily and potentially INVITE the surrender of my firearm to anyone. I usually will have no reason to voluntarily do so in a traffic-stop situation, and I feel that posture is justifiable because I know my hands are never gonna go anywhere even remotely near to my concealed firearm during the interaction with any LEO.

    Yeah, LEOs, you sure as heck DO have the right to go home to your family at the end of your shift, and THANK YOU immensely for the contribution you make to helping keep the predators at bay for lawful citizens. Since I AM a lawful citizen, I WON'T be the person adversely impeding your ability to be on your own merry way toward ultimate safe arrival home at the end of your shift. Concurrently, I don't need one iota of any extra hassle or possibly-negative demeanor either, just because I happen to be exercising my lawful rights, before I'm permitted to continue on my merry way, too.

    I'll voluntarily inform if my common sense makes me think it'd be wise to do so under the existent circumstances. Otherwise, I tend to keep my mouth shut and honestly answer only those questions which the LEO elects to pose. This, of course, applies in my own residency state and its current law. Almost 32 years of CCW in 3 differing residency states, not once have I ever found reason or need to voluntarily inform. Keeping my mouth shut has harmed no one. So it could just as easily be said, re a law-abiding CCW licensee, "What's the harm in not informing?" as it could be said, "What's the harm in informing?". With just one slight difference: I myself KNOW I'm not gonna cause any hassle for the LEO. I can't be QUITE as confidently certain that the LEO will feel and act the same toward me if I DO unnecessarily and voluntarily inform. The difference for the motorist is that voluntary informing always creates a pure even 50-50 chance that the LEO may react positively or negatively to the news. I do think most LEOs are supportive of CCW. But it's still an individual ideology and philosopy, so the "50-50" chance of positive-negative reaction is always present.

    I DO think informing shows a HIGHER degree of respect for the LEO which they might appreciate. But I DON'T feel it's "disrespectful" to them if I elect to keep my mouth shut, either. Not if the law so permits. I'm dealing with a law enforcement officer, after all. If I've NOT violated a law by silence, and you HAVEN'T posed the question, then I don't feel silence is disrespectful to the LEO at all. No law broken, no threat posed, thus no disrespect exhibited.

    His concerns and my level of respect are dictated and evidenced much moreso by my ACTIONS than by my verbal statements. If he lends more weight, credence and alertness to my verbal statements moreso than keeping watchful eye on my physical actions, then may God go with you, because such habit might well impede or defeat your safe return home at shift's end some day.

    I endeavor to "act appropriately" in any-all situations & expect the same from others. I like to, but don't need to, nor am I required to "make your job easier". It's your job, and you're trained for it. I just need to not complicate or make your doing of your job any harder for you. Probably why I've sustained and/or caused no undue hassle or concern for any LEO in 32 years of CCW. So . . . "what's the big deal?", one way or the other?

    We were asked multiple times to "put ourselves in the shoes of the LEO". We didn't elect to wear them, you did, for which we commend and thank you. But let's not forget that we're the ones whose taxes pay your salaries, and that LEOs and lawful citizens are deserving of commanding and receiving wholly equal levels of respect, across the board. The Law itself determines whether or not silence is a violation. No violation of law committed = no disrespect exhibited for the Law, or the LEO enforcing our Laws. Again I do think it can be wise to inform. I just differ a bit with any LEO who feels it "disrespectful" to not inform if the law doesn't require it, is all. Since when is law compliance considered "disrespectful"?

    "Every encounter you have involves a man with a gun. The man is You, and the gun is Yours. Therefore, conduct yourself appropriately at all times".
    - (Author Unknown)
    Last edited by RTC1911; April 5th, 2007 at 03:15 PM.

  7. #52
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911shooter View Post
    just because he's an LEO dont mean squat to me....
    Thats obvious. But my wife and family (and I'b betting yours too) give a squat. Keep your mouth shut if you wish. However since you've "been on that side" you know full well that a traffic stop is in fact an arrest and letting an officer who has a family that gives a squat about him getting home and the fact that noone can tell him what a cop killer looks like and even former leos can be that.

    Keep your opinion, its ok (as long as its legal in your area), but I will tell you this, as a career leo, being up front is and always be the best way to deal with the situation.

    Have the gun spotted and you havent told them its there, will almost always end up with you staring down the business end of theirs and their backing officers weapons. If thats what you like ok, for me, the least amount of time I have live charged weapons pointed at me the happier I am.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTC1911 View Post
    We were asked multiple times to "put ourselves in the shoes of the LEO". We didn't elect to wear them, you did, for which we commend and thank you. But let's not forget that we're the ones whose taxes pay your salaries, and that LEOs and lawful citizens are deserving of commanding and receiving wholly equal levels of respect, across the board. The Law itself determines whether or not silence is a violation. No violation of law committed = no disrespect exhibited for the Law, or the LEO enforcing our Laws. Again I do think it can be wise to inform. I just differ a bit with any LEO who feels it "disrespectful" to not inform if the law doesn't require it, is all. Since when is law compliance considered "disrespectful"?
    RTC1911, I pulled this paragraph out, since I couldn't have said it any better...thanks.
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it outĒ Ė Clint Smith

  9. #54
    Member Array Condition Plaid's Avatar
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    A condition of the CCW License in Orange County, California, is that you must inform any LEO that contacts you that you have a CCW.
    For information on getting your CCW License in California please visit CalCCW.

  10. #55
    Member Array Mr_D's Avatar
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    RTC1911

    Thanks for a very wonderful discourse. You wrote my thoughts exactly. I also have carried for over 30 years and never had a problem and would not inform unless asked. I never cease to be amazed at the attitudes of some leo on this board and other boards as well. I have concluded that most citizens inform hoping to get a break or try to impress the leo that they carry. I could care less. You are dead on it that sometimes informing creates problems for John Q citizen because of the attitude "why do you need a gun" that some leo have. My son made the mistake of informing a leo here in Alabama that he was armed. After being spreadeagled on the trunk, cuffed until two backup cruisers arrived and then lectured for 20 minutes on 1. you don't need to carry a gun and 2. you do not need a gun that big...he concluded he will never open his mouth again. I will never forget the courtroom judge litterally making an idiot out this officer. He was then told, "this is not Boston". This is America. The officer had come from a very anti gun part of Mass. The whole case was thrown out with the officer still mad as hell for the public tongue lashing from the judge. Long story short....the officer never heard "permit"..just "gun" and of course freaked.
    Thanks again for the insight you expressed.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
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    I have always stated I am armed and I have a CCW permit in my wallet. with both my hands on the wheel, in plain view.

    When the LEO walks up to the car and sees both hands on the top of the steering wheel with fingers open. He will assume you are telling him something. but don't make him guess. A warning could turn into a ticket.

    The LEO will inform you what he wants your to do next.

    Nevada has a flashing icon on their computer screen, when they run your vehicle plate, State ID or your name, that indicates you have a CCW. If you have a NV CCW!

    I have moved to AZ within the last 3 weeks and I have no idea if they have the same system here.

    However neither state, NV, AZ has a law requiring to to notifiy the LEO when stopped. But it is a good idea IMHO.

    Utah Does have that requirment. "must notifity" without being asked
    Last edited by Beans; April 5th, 2007 at 09:27 PM. Reason: Information added

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by fed_wif_a_sig View Post
    Thats obvious. But my wife and family (and I'b betting yours too) give a squat. Keep your mouth shut if you wish. However since you've "been on that side" you know full well that a traffic stop is in fact an arrest and letting an officer who has a family that gives a squat about him getting home and the fact that noone can tell him what a cop killer looks like and even former leos can be that.

    Keep your opinion, its ok (as long as its legal in your area), but I will tell you this, as a career leo, being up front is and always be the best way to deal with the situation.

    Have the gun spotted and you havent told them its there, will almost always end up with you staring down the business end of theirs and their backing officers weapons. If thats what you like ok, for me, the least amount of time I have live charged weapons pointed at me the happier I am.
    thats one of the reasons i left police work the holier then thou attitude most LEO's assume is their god given right. you choose the career... the comment wasnt ment for the LEO's on this site it is for the gun hating anti ccw cops like was said earlier its tax payers that pay your salary... i know you dont like to hear it but its true......and anytime you volenteer info you are carrying you are more then not treated like a criminal except for the rare occasion... i hope every one of you go home to your family every night. do your job give me the ticket i'll be on my way and you can be on yours.
    When the dust settles only the prepared will survive.

    NRA LIFE MEMBER

    remember the only thing common about common sense is that its not that common

    Shoot low boys their riding Shetland ponies.

  13. #58
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    RTC1911 - Outstanding post!!!

    First, let me say that my plan always has been and always will be to inform the LEO of my permit UNLESS, as RTC1911 says, my gut feeling tells me that the particular LEO who has pulled me over might act negatively. I honestly think that in most cases, that will result in the best outcome for both of us. Mutual respect.

    But, I have to take exception with any comments that indicate a LEO should have the RIGHT to point a loaded gun at me simply because I didn't mention my gun when the law does not require me to do so.

    If the law requires me to inform the officer, I can understand the LEO having a bad reaction since, I would be breaking the law.

    In Virginia, there is no such law. So what we are talking about here, is a LEO abusing his power because he doesn't like it that I didn't inform him of something I was not required to inform him of.

    RTC1911 nailed it. If the LEO didnít think the question was important enough to be the first words out of his mouth, then why should I be punished for not volunteering the info when he hasnít asked?

    This isn't Hollywood. Pointing a loaded gun and ANYONE is VERY, VERY serious business and EVERYONE including LEOís should take it very seriously.

    If a LEO would ever point a gun at me when I am acting legally, I guarantee that I would devote all my energy in filing complaints and lawsuits if for no other reason that just to try to force the Department to change that kind of behavior.

    I have high respect for law enforcement officers, but I demand my fair share of respect in return.

    Want to know if I have a gun? Ask me. I will tell you.

    I have never been a LEO but I think that if I were, I would assume that everyone is armed and just be vigilant throughout the stop. If the guy acts in a way that would give me cause to think he is a bad guy, then sure I would take steps to secure him. But to draw down on him because he didnít tell you he had a gun before you asked him is a little extreme.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    Survival isnt a holier than thou attitude, its a life style. Again I say its a persons call, but if you choose not to and you end up staring down the business end of a barrel always remember, it was your choice.

    On the tax payer issue. Funny, every funeral for a brother officer I went to, his killer also paid taxes. Oh and tax payers also paid for the funerals too.

    Again, its your call, but again if you choose to keep that fact hidden (as long as its legal in the jurisdiction your in) understand that an officer will not give you time to explain why your packing until after you and the weapon (and most likely everyone in your vehicle) are secured. Just be informed my only statement here is that if you choose not to inform the officer who stopped you, then dont gripe at the possible situation you can find yourself in.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

  15. #60
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    Lets keep it on topic and respectful. If you wish to no notify, so be it, but keep the comments about cop attitude out of it.
    As Fed said, last thing I wanna here during a traffic stop is GUN!
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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