Food for Thought

Food for Thought

This is a discussion on Food for Thought within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Some of you may have heard this as it is part of a lecture given at a training class. While the whole lecture was full ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array freetrapper's Avatar
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    Food for Thought

    Some of you may have heard this as it is part of a lecture given at a training class. While the whole lecture was full of good information this part really made me think.

    Violent crime is committed by males and females of all age groups, races, religions, and occupations.

    Are you willing to shoot a woman?
    A teenager?
    A ten year old boy?
    Your coworker?
    A member of your own family?

    What horrific circumstances would require such decisions?

    Statistically you are more likely to be killed by someone you know than by a stranger. Just ask police detectives who their first suspect is in a homicide… #1 is the spouse, then friends, then acquaintances…..



    Think about that! So many of us seem to think of our attacker as a stranger or a drug crazed street thug. What if it is your drunken Father in Law, your ex husband or wife, a past girlfiend, the teenage son of a friend, a co worker, the nice guy next door to your parents?

    God forbid, if it ever happens we all need to know that it may not be as black and white as we think it will be.
    Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."

    ~ Thomas Jefferson


  2. #2
    Member Array freetrapper's Avatar
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    Admin.

    Hate to reply to my own post but if this is the wrong place to post this topic please move it.
    Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."

    ~ Thomas Jefferson

  3. #3
    JD
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    If thier intent is do do great bodily harm enough to warrant shooting I'll shoot first and feel bad later.


    One of the first things they told us before going to the Gulf was that a 12 year old with an AK is just as deadly as a 25 year old with an AK.

    I try not to be discriminating when it comes to hostile ARMED targets.

    Race, age, sex and relation do not matter if your life is on the line.

  4. #4
    Member Array freetrapper's Avatar
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    I agree 100%,

    I was not questioning the comments I made at all but I have found that not everyone has considered all of that.
    Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."

    ~ Thomas Jefferson

  5. #5
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    I think I would be able to do lethally defend myself from everyone but my husband, my mother, or my brother (I'm just being honest here, folks).

    I think, wait, I KNOW, I would try to escape and protect myself to a degree, but if, for instance, my husband got the better of me and was strangling me to death, I would watch him in disbelief as I died by his hand. I couldn't use lethal force against him. (Sorry, honey!)

    If I did survive I would turn him in but I wouldn't be able to kill him.

    After careful consideration I could probably even use lethal force against my father even, or my sisters, but not my mother or my brother.

    I've loved those three the most of all the people in my life and trust them so completely with my life that I would give up my own before I would take theirs. I honestly don't think I could live with myself if I had to live knowing I took their life, even if self defense.

    Everyone else, I'm with jdl, shoot first, feel bad later.

    But then again, I don't know.. If I'm threatened, it has become natural for me to go for my gun and I MAY just fire out of a survival instinct. I would hope I have more control over myself than that, but who knows. You hear about police officers who never even remember drawing their weapons and they "wake up" with an empty gun and a dead perp. It could happen, I guess, and I would suppose that if things were that bad that I was afraid for my very life because of what my husband or mother or brother was doing to me that I might instinctively respond and "come to" with them dead. I think it would be the hardest thing for me to ever cope with, but who's to say it couldn't happen.

    I would hope it wouldn't, but who's to know...

    (And as far as ex-boyfriends is concerned, one of them is a good reason I started carrying in the first place: to be ready if he ever comes around again!)
    Last edited by limatunes; April 11th, 2007 at 02:56 PM.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    This is very typical to some degree of almost all self-defense shootings, not just for the police.

    "You hear about police officers who never even remember drawing their weapons and they "wake up" with an empty gun and a dead perp. It could happen, I guess..."

    Why do you think they allow officers administrative leave after a shooting? It is so they can collect their thoughts which are pretty scrambled as a result of the chemical dump that took place in their bodies. You and I will not be afforded that courtesy.

    As for the original question in this thread I couldn't shoot my kids or my wife. Anyone else is fair game.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    There are a lot of people that I could not use deadly force against unless they were hurting someone very close to me!
    Last edited by Timmy Jimmy; April 11th, 2007 at 03:59 PM.
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  8. #8
    Member Array Tye_Defender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freetrapper View Post
    Statistically you are more likely to be killed by someone you know than by a stranger. Just ask police detectives who their first suspect is in a homicide… #1 is the spouse, then friends, then acquaintances…..
    I've always wondered about this statistic. We hear it all the time, along with "statistically speaking you are more likely to be killed with your own gun then use it against someone in self defense". Both statistics have been twisted a little to make them sound ominous. I think it is more correct to say that statistically speaking, murder victims know their attacker. That does not mean that I am more likely to be killed by someone I know since I am not currently in the group being studied (since I haven't been murdered). To apply this statistic to a specific group you would need to get a little more information and remove murder victims that did not fit into the group being applied. I wonder what happens to this number if you remove high risk victims, like gang members, victims of domestic violence, etc. I also wonder how many of these victims not only knew their attacker, but also had information that indicated their attacker was capable of murder.

    As for the specific question, I have thought about this. I'm with Limatunes, if my Wife or someone else that I Love very much was to attack me I would not defend myself with lethal force. (Actually, I probably would not defend myself at all against my Wife but I hate to even consider it).

  9. #9
    Member Array freetrapper's Avatar
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    "Statistically Speaking" You are probably right about this Statistic. LOL

    My dad told one time that "Figures Lie and Liars Figure". I think he was right so I doubt about any numbers or statistics I hear.

    However it is still a thought provoking topic.
    Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."

    ~ Thomas Jefferson

  10. #10
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    I've always wondered about this statistic. We hear it all the time, along with "statistically speaking you are more likely to be killed with your own gun then use it against someone in self defense". Both statistics have been twisted a little to make them sound ominous. I think it is more correct to say that statistically speaking, murder victims know their attacker. That does not mean that I am more likely to be killed by someone I know since I am not currently in the group being studied (since I haven't been murdered). To apply this statistic to a specific group you would need to get a little more information and remove murder victims that did not fit into the group being applied. I wonder what happens to this number if you remove high risk victims, like gang members, victims of domestic violence, etc. I also wonder how many of these victims not only knew their attacker, but also had information that indicated their attacker was capable of murder.
    Well, here is a wuick rundown of some victimization data for ya:
    -Men are more often victims of violent crime, women more likely to have a crime committed against them by a relative/someone they know.
    -Low income people are more likely to suffer violent crime, wealthy people more likely to have felony property crimes against them.
    -Young single people are more often targetted than older married people.
    -Crime victimization tends to be highly interracial, with few exceptions (most exceptions are minorities committing crimes against whites, simply because of the difference in ratios.)
    -1/2 of all nonlethal violent crimes are committed by by an acquantaince of the victim
    - at least 6/10 rapes are committed by someone the woman knows.
    -74% of robberies against males are committed by a stranger, the number is 43% for females.

    That is just a quick collection of statistics that is put together from UCR and NCVS information. A lot of crimes are committed by acquantices/family members.

    As far as the original question, you should be prepared to do whatever you need to do to survive no matter who the criminal.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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  11. #11
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    In all honesty, I'm not sure I'd want to survive in a world where the people I trusted most and loved most in this world were trying to intentionally kill me.

    My mother is one of the gentlest and most wonderful women on the face of this earth.

    My brother practically raised me and has always stood up for me and believed in me, no matter what.

    My husband is the most patient, understanding, gentle, caring and loving man I have every had the privilege of meeting (and the luck of wooing ).

    If any one of those three turned/changed enough to try to intentionally kill me, the world has gone so far down hill I really wouldn't care to be a part of it anymore.. That may sound extremely bleak, but that's how I see it.

    Now if there was something wrong with them, as in drugs or illness or some kind of other thing that altered their mental-state to the point that they didn't know what they were doing and they attacked me, I still don't think I could kill them, but at least I could fight them knowing that if they were in their right mind they would not be doing this. If they inadvertently died from fighting with me in that situation I could deal with that. I did what I had to do. I could live knowing that they died doing something they would never normally choose to do. It would make all of the difference to me.
    Last edited by limatunes; April 11th, 2007 at 04:39 PM.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freetrapper View Post

    I was not questioning the comments I made at all but I have found that not everyone has considered all of that.
    I for one, have not considered all of the above. I'm glad you brought it up.

    I think I'd go the extra mile before using deadly force against a 10yr old or a family member. This may be risky, but years of EMS taught me that the sight of a dead adult doesn't generally bother me. The sight of a dead kid hurts though.

    I've got some soul searching to do on this one.
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  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freetrapper View Post
    Statistically you are more likely to be killed by someone you know than by a stranger. Just ask police detectives who their first suspect is in a homicide… #1 is the spouse, then friends, then acquaintances….. [/b] [/i]
    This goes along with the Rules of Stupid- if you hang around stupid people, you increase your chances of violent injury/death. This in turn follows the fact that most offenders really aren't capable of weighing future consequences as a result of immediate actions. If you have a spouse/SO/child or other relative whose decision making capability is somewhat limited, shall we say, then you seriously need to consider repelling a violent assault. If your peerage is neither socially nor morally retarded, your risk is higher from the street thugs.

    Are you going to have to shoot your father, who spent his life instructing you with even-handed discipline, and supporting you (and assuming he's still in his right mind)? Not too likely.

    Is he a drunk, druggie, or abusive? Then you need to consider whether continued assosciation with him is worth the risk of having to kill him. Pretty basic adult choices, IMHO.........

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    Survival instinct kicks in when your life is threatened, and your training may kick in, making you react and kill someone you think you may not. On the other hand if you are not threatened but someone else is you may do nothing even if you think you should.

    Noone really knows what they may do untill the time comes to react.
    We sometimes react without thinking and sometimes we overthink and don't react.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raevan

    We sometimes react without thinking and sometimes we overthink and don't react.
    I think that the more we cover various scenarios ahead of time, the less likely we'll be caught in a situation where we have to spend too much time thinking to react effectively.
    Spend few minutes learning about my journey from Zero to Athlete in this mini documentary!
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