Even the Cops who provide security were disarmed! - Page 2

Even the Cops who provide security were disarmed!

This is a discussion on Even the Cops who provide security were disarmed! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by packinnova Personally I would rather see them get ripped a new one first and put on prob and make them run drills ...

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Thread: Even the Cops who provide security were disarmed!

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink It IS a "harsh" policy...but...

    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Personally I would rather see them get ripped a new one first and put on prob and make them run drills for the next 3 months before putting them back on duty. Then any more issues or even an attitude and show em the door with no excuses. It's good to know some still have clear heads.
    Ever seen these guys train? They run live fire room clearing ops in incredibly tight confines. Sometimes it is almost impossible to avoid "sweeping" a buddy in such tight quarters. I think I'd have some trouble entering a room like that especially in a stress situation, knowing that one of the guys right behind me had an AD in a nonstress situation. To extend an analogy, would you carry a gun for self defense if even one time, it had failed? 99% reliability ain't gonna cut it when my life and the life of my wife is on the line. I've gotten rid of three handguns, all of reputable brands for just that reason.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMan View Post
    What I could not believe is the cops. The cops were all wearing red training guns!
    The public was asked to play victims. I said sure, why not, and took part.
    Think about those two distinct facts, for a moment. Now, think about it again.

    A simulated anthrax scare should remain calm. A real one, though, could easily blow sideways and get out of hand. Yet, role playing is what it is, designed to simulate some/much of the stress of the actual scenario. Particularly when civilians are involved, certain precautions don't seem unreasonable. Imagine if a riot were part of the training, and if loaded, cocked & locked weapons were issued with live rounds, and ... Depends on the training op, of course.

    Whenever cops head to the physical training rooms for force-on-force training, they're scanned and cleared weapons-free (at least, in my town they are). It's for the safety of everyone. Same in this case, I'm presuming. That's a good thing.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Actually you can mandate competance. Businesses do it all day long...They(Military/LE) choose not to. They can mandate it and anyone that doesn't pass the grade say...twice...show 'em the door. Harsh? No. If you can't trust someone with a gun when you're not looking and controlling every action...You shouldn't be giving them one in the first place. Same thing with interest too. If they are in said chosen profession and show that they don't have their full interest and attention in said job, clearly they don't care to begin with...cut the string and get them out before they injure themselves or someone else. I almost wonder what it would be like if all our LE agencies were run by civilian organizations, IE Businesses with a bottom dollar to lose rather than a full coffer of tax payer dollars.

    It's really a simple concept. If your own people don't trust you with a gun, why should us lowly civilians? Sorry if I'm coming across harsh. I'm not directing this at anyone specific here. I guess I'm just becoming a bit rigid in the realities of life and can't stand bad work ethics.
    Just to play Devil's Advocate for a minute here... What does not "passing the grade" entail. If someone makes two mistakes with a firearm, doesn't that translate to two (or more) potential deaths? While I don't fully agree with the military/LE "safety uber alles" mentality, the problem is that - unlike in a business - mistakes can equal death, not a drop in profits. As has been pointed out, in many units one AD/ND will get you the door (though, when I was in at least, you could come back to the Rangers after 6 months). It's harsh, yes. It's expensive, yes. But AD/NDs are VERY rare in these units, because they are better trained, are more motivated, and they know the consequences are (at a bare minimum) the big boot back to a line unit.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMan View Post
    Was walking around 10 or so cops, every last one unarmed, and not one had a clue I was.
    LOL, sure, OK.

    I am certain you were not the only one still armed.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array DMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Think about those two distinct facts, for a moment. Now, think about it again.

    A simulated anthrax scare should remain calm. A real one, though, could easily blow sideways and get out of hand. Yet, role playing is what it is, designed to simulate some/much of the stress of the actual scenario. Particularly when civilians are involved, certain precautions don't seem unreasonable. Imagine if a riot were part of the training, and if loaded, cocked & locked weapons were issued with live rounds, and ... Depends on the training op, of course.

    Whenever cops head to the physical training rooms for force-on-force training, they're scanned and cleared weapons-free (at least, in my town they are). It's for the safety of everyone. Same in this case, I'm presuming. That's a good thing.
    However, to add another quote from my 2nd post "As a patient we were told to specifically NOT act out in any manner, as this was not part of the process. We were told it was to test the set up only, can they process me through the system fast."

    There was NO simulation of panic, or anything of that sort. These police officers were not part of the drill, they were there to provide security FOR THE DRILL. Big difference.
    "Gun Free Zones" is where only criminals carry guns.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMan View Post
    There was NO simulation of panic, or anything of that sort.
    Yet, role play has the common ability of unfolding into exactly that sort of thing. I'm sure this is the rationale behind avoiding live rounds and civilians.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #22
    Member Array H. Lee's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=tanksoldier;341495]

    "It's the same as IDPA/IPSC groups that run cold ranges. Having one person with a gun going about their daily business is one thing, having 30 people handling guns all in the same space is another."

    It's always refreshing to see references to IDPA/IPSC. I think that anyone with a CHL should participate regularly in IDPA/IPSC. I belong to both and participate every week in both IDPA sceneiros and bowling pins. I know, you're going to ask "what does shooting bowling pins have to do with anything???". (I've had people on this forum tell me they don't think they will ever be attacked by a bowling pin.) Well try shooting pins in very low lighting, from retention, strong hand only and weak hand. From 7-15 yds. And, remember, it's all against the clock or someone else. Oh, and we don't have lasers & lights, etc.

    Thanks, tanksoldier.

  8. #23
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    Drill

    Had a multi-agency drill last shift at work. Plane crash, dirty suicide bomber and helicopter crash all in one. Because our airport perimiter was open, we had corrections officers (on overtime) securing the gates and runway/taxiway areas. Also had deputies in the scenario, including the bomb squad (Please, just give me 5 minutes in the back of their truck unsupervised). All fully armed. Security, role players, overtime, whatever. Not sure the rationale behind your drill. In the past, we have done SWAT excercises, and the roleplayers were triple-checked for Simunitions only, but everybody else was armed as usual. Maybe it's just me, but it seems unsafe to disarm everybody. We had 2 "for real" incidents during our drill, and one was a person trying to climb a perimeter gate at the airport....He failed to complete his criminal act, BTW.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Unfortunately, the way most big city cops GET to be cops is this: A person (male or female) goes to the county employment office and peruses the "NOW HIRING" ads on a bulletin board. They run down the job requirements and the salary and the perks (gee you get to take the PATROL car home) and the health insurance....and they say: "Hey this looks pretty GOOD! What job is it for? Cop? I can do that!"

    That's that. Little boys no longer grow up wanting to put the BG's in jail or ride off into the sunset with the fair maiden.
    Totally not true. Walking onto just about any college campus and finding out where the Criminal Justice department is will show that there are many young men and women that want nothing more than to be police officers. Around here an opening for one or two police officers will often draw 50-100 applicants. It seems there are far more people wanting to be police officers than there are places for them to be police officers at.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
    - Lt. Col. Oliver North

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