CCH may not have helped

This is a discussion on CCH may not have helped within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A concealed carry holder on campus or even in the class rooms of the same building would only have helped if they were willing to ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 41

Thread: CCH may not have helped

  1. #1
    Member Array freetrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    353

    CCH may not have helped

    A concealed carry holder on campus or even in the class rooms of the same building would only have helped if they were willing to do it.

    I hear comment after comment on how a CCH in there would have or might have stopped this. Many of these comments (not just on this forum) come from the same people that have several posts in other places stating "I carry to protect me and mine" or "if its not a direct threat to me or my loved ones I would walk away and be a good witness"

    Well guys I do not want trouble any more than the next guy but......... a gun would not have stopped him if the carrier was not willing to step in and make a differance. Sure if you were in the very class room where the shooting started you would have no choice but to defend yourself. But if you were down the hall or up stairs, would you be willing to go put your self in harms way to help your fellow man.

    Many of us will never know what we will do but we need to think about it. I have noticed in the fire service when we get new volunteers that some guys have the mentality to go in and make a differance, some don't. I truely believe that a concealed handgun on a person in that building could have made a huge differance. However to have made a differance you might have had to leave your safe zone and put yourself at risk by searching out the danger zone.
    Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."

    ~ Thomas Jefferson

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    2,753
    Mindset, attitude and determination are key, whether among private citizens or LEOs. The difference this can make was demonstrated quite dramatically in the UT sniper incident in 1966. I included a number of instances of such in this thread, http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...ad.php?t=23822 , mainly via quotes from Ray Martinez, the first officer to engage Charles Whitman atop the UT Tower.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  4. #3
    Member Array Whirlwind06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    115
    It is pretty reasonable to say that if a active shooter is walking down the hall going room to room. That is a direct threat to my safety.

    But you are correct, it is a mind set. Is a CHL holder going to run to the shooting? Or run away from it?

  5. #4
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,647
    I would hope that most people that go to the trouble of buying a gun, getting a CCW, AND carry every day, are carrying for a purpose. Whether they can fulfill that purpose when the time comes is up to them I suppose.

    But we do read of many incidents where a CCW prevailed, and at least two incidents where CCWs prevailed were in schools.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  6. #5
    Member Array freetrapper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    353
    I believe that the element of surprise gives a big advantage to the CCW. I think that they can prevail in most situations or I would not be one of them. I also think, no I believe that most of the fellow CCW's that I know personaly would make the right call.
    Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not."

    ~ Thomas Jefferson

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    1,126
    I guess the operative word here is MIGHT help.

    I have said before that the people caught in these situations are simply good people in a bad situation doing the best they can.

    Some will opt to go after the shooter. They could die or they could save lives.

    Some will opt to stay where they are and protect those around them. They could die or they could save lives.

    Some will try to run for the hills to save themselves for the sake of their family or just for the sake of themselves. They could die in the process or save their own life.

    Many of us have stated what we would do. Actually, it is what we want to do and what we hope we will do since you can't really know what you will do until you are in that situation.

    Sitting here in my nice cushy office, drinking my nice hot cut of coffee in air conditioned comfort, I believe that I would find it hard to hear the gun shots, knowing that people are dying and not act.

    But. . . . take away my office, coffee and AC and put me in a room next door to where a homicidal maniac is murdering people. . . ??? . . . I hope I would act.

    Actually, I hope I never have to find out.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  8. #7
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,082
    +1 Paul
    Sometimes I wonder who the old man in the mirror is....

    Lord, Grant me a good sword and no need to use it.

  9. #8
    VIP Member
    Array OPFOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Nomad
    Posts
    4,609
    I have never been (nor do I hope to be) in a situation very similar to this one. I have been faced with lethal force, but always in the performance of my duties, which more clearly defines who and what I must protect. If I were ever faced with this scenario, I would hope I would react in a similar manner - some variation of "move to the sound of the gunfire and kill everyone not dressed like me..."
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #9
    VIP Member
    Array Miggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Miami-Dade, FL
    Posts
    6,258
    Yes, it might not have helped (the thought which incidentally is used by antis now... and I am not calling you one) but Gun Free Zone GUARANTEES 100% victims when a derranged SOB decides to act.
    That is the difference: A fighting chance v. No Chance at All.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  11. #10
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,082
    Agreed if a CCW was armed it would have changed the equation.

    We know what the outcome was, with no one armed but the shooter.
    Sometimes I wonder who the old man in the mirror is....

    Lord, Grant me a good sword and no need to use it.

  12. #11
    VIP Member
    Array Betty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Nashville-ish
    Posts
    3,168
    Let's say I was a professor in that school that day.

    If I was in my classroom, I'd be protecting me and mine. I likely wouldn't be out trying to find the killer. Nobody knows who's doing all the shooting, and last thing I want is for the cops to swarm the campus and see me running about with a gun, because I would have a great chance of getting shot by them.

    I'd like to go out there and save as many people as I can because it's my nature to help, but not to the extent that I'm stupid and get myself killed or burden the police because they're busy focusing on me when the real killer is elsewhere.

    So protecting me and mine would be staying in the classroom, barricading the door, and herding my students out of the line of fire. If that killer manages to burst past my door, I'll be shooting. I made a very hard decision to carry a gun. If my training and motivation to survive doesn't click at that moment, than I'm dead, and so are my students.

    But he would likely test the door, find it secure, and move on to easier victims. Nobody would hear about the permitholder who saved the students by barricading the door, or the fighting chance that class had if the killer did breach the barricade.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  13. #12
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    388
    The point is that if one of the people in that classroom, who were killed execution-style, had been carrying then it is unlikely that so many would have died. We don't have to look for someone on campus who would have been willing to put themselves in harms way in order to save others. We only have to realize that disarming the victims most certainly did NOT help the situation!

    I will not second-guess people who choose not to put themselves at greater risk in order to help others. That is their choice, not mine, and I have no more right to tell them what to do than they have to tell me what to do. That is beside the REAL point about the shootings, though. By creating an imaginary "gun free zone" they insured that none of the people who were killed would have an opportunity to defend themselves.

  14. #13
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    388
    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    That is the difference: A fighting chance v. No Chance at All.
    Exactly. And even though some people would say there is very little chance that a CCW holder could have made a difference, there is a HUGE difference between "very little chance" and "no chance at all." Heck! That's why people buy lottery tickets, even people who understand the odds. Even a one in a billion chance is significantly different, and much better, than absolutely no chance at all.

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array jeep45238's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    708
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    But. . . . take away my office, coffee and AC and put me in a room next door to where a homicidal maniac is murdering people. . . ??? . . . I hope I would act.

    Actually, I hope I never have to find out.
    Same here. By Ohio law I'm authorized to use deadly force in defense of myself, friends, and strangers. I am not required to, but I believe it is the right thing to do. I hope to never find myself in a similar situation, but I hope that is how I act.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Central FL
    Posts
    2,073
    I am one of those guys who will protect me and mine first for reasons I have stated elsewhere. My feeling is that first off, this is not a problem that will be addressed by a single concealed carrier that just happens to be in the right place and plays superhero. This is a society wide problem of people who are trained from childhood not to defend themselves and authorities who will deny an individual the means to defense.

    If there had been a bunch of people there who had been raised with a mindset of self defense then there would of been some people being directly attacked who would have acted on the spot. Not waiting for security, the police, or the need to run to the parking lot to retrieve a weapon or just cowering waiting to be next. No one else would have had to decide whether to run to the sound of gunfire or not.

    Until our society changes it's attitudes about self defense I fear that we will only see more of this type of thing. Even unarmed groups of people can take actions that are positive in a situation like this. Yes, some might have been killed or injured but the numbers would have been far less.

    If the schools would wake up to this and at least look at the Israeli model or (perish the thought) start teaching real world self defense to students and then allow them the tools to defend themselves. If parents would do what they are supposed to do and teach the same then we would see some real changes in our society and crime in general.

    Otherwise the more things change the more they will stay the same. I don't mean to sound cold or callous but this fantasy view of reality that pervades our society is literally getting people killed.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. To all those that helped me with my IT questions...
    By cdjspider in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: September 20th, 2009, 07:01 PM
  2. Helped out a newbie today
    By ExactlyMyPoint in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: August 9th, 2009, 12:49 PM
  3. CCW probably just helped save me $280....
    By nlax2011 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: January 16th, 2009, 09:59 PM
  4. Where it helped?
    By packinnova in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: May 9th, 2008, 02:24 PM
  5. Thanks to those who helped
    By pirate252 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: May 11th, 2007, 02:08 PM