.22 for defense CC? - Page 2

.22 for defense CC?

This is a discussion on .22 for defense CC? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've been reading the Ayoob files. Mas does a good job of looking at all angles of the gunfight experience. He addresses knockdown and the ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array mmwb's Avatar
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    I've been reading the Ayoob files. Mas does a good job of looking at all angles of the gunfight experience. He addresses knockdown and the psychological effects of being hit, including the phenomena of people going down when they thought they were hit. They could feel the bullet, the burn, and then often collapsed. We're talking people that were not actually hit. Some people are shot with a .32, and others with a .45. Some go down with one shot from a .32, others take several rounds from the .45 and keep coming. Excepting the central nevous system disabling shot the psychy of the one being shot has a lot of influence on how soon he or she goes down.

    Still....the bigger, harder hitting, deeper prenetrating rounds, will no doubt see a person "put down" quicker, with the same placement, than those of a lighter caliber.


  2. #17
    Member Array OfClanMcnab's Avatar
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    Joleary223, very good points. You can clearly see in the .22 shooting video that the .22 did nothing to physically put the victim down. I'm sure later on he had to sit down or something, due to shock and/or blood loss, but during the course of the altercation the .22 did nothing to sway the incident in the bad guy's favor, PHYSICALLY. Adrenaline and lack of lethal trauma kept the lawyer on his feet.

    However, you will notice that the presence of a gun in the hand of the bad guy had a mental impact on the victim, as he was obviously deterred from acting against the perp. Now, a situation where a victim is protecting themself against a bad guy may be different. The mere presence of a firearm - however puny - may not be enough to dissuade a determined criminal from attacking, especially if they are amped up on drugs.

    Something I noticed in the last video, which I have seen before, but did not notice this one detail. I have seen this video multiple times, but this is the first time I understood why the clerk appeared to 'finish off' the bad guy. Watch as the bad guy falls to the floor. The gun drops from his grasp and onto the floor to his right. Watch the gun as the clerk comes out from behind the counter and moves to his [the clerk's] right, around a stack of clothing. The BG reaches for the fallen gun and pulls it around in the direction of the clerk. He was clearly going to shoot at the clerk. The clerk fires once and the hand appears, but still holding the gun. The clerk fires a second time and the hand finally releases the gun. Next, the clerk comes back around and the first thing he does is takes the gun from the ground near the BG and places it behind the counter. The focus of the clerk was clearly on the gun, which was in the hand of the BG. Once the BG no longer had control of the weapon, the threat was gone and the clerk stops shooting.
    Last edited by OfClanMcnab; April 24th, 2007 at 11:59 AM. Reason: fixed punctuation

  3. #18
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  4. #19
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  5. #20
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    Post Guaranteed One Shot Stop - medulla oblongata

    Just An Interesting FYI

    A guaranteed instant incapacitation is achieved when the deadly threat is hit in the brain stem.

    The definition of instant incapacitation is that even if the bad guy has his finger on the trigger, his body will be physically unable to pull that trigger. A hit to the medulla oblongata and it all instantly shuts down.

    And since we are not snipers or assassins and the immediate deadly threat will most always be facing the good guy in a deadly encounter - then the projectile has to be heavy enough and hot enough enter from the front and disrupt/destroy the brain stem.

    That is if you are after an instant one shot incapacitating stop.

    Below you can see the brain stem area in relation to the skull and face.

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  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    Responded and investigated alot of shootings in my career, and overwelmingly the ones who were standing were shot with 22s. They can work, and sometimes even drop the person shot with one round instantly (ie James Brady or USSS SA Timothy McCarthy). However in my professional experience, outside multiple head shots, the 22 cal is highly unreliable for stopping someone and in about half the cases I recall, the person shot was just more enraged.
    Steve
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  7. #22
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    Thanks all, great posts.

  8. #23
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    Effective power and one-shot-stops aside, the .22 ammo is notoriously unreliable. .22LR ammo carried simply MUST be rotated quickly. The ammo will break down and become unreliable. That's not a big deal, dollar wise, but you have to be reliogious about swapping over the ammo.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shizzlemah View Post
    Effective power and one-shot-stops aside, the .22 ammo is notoriously unreliable. .22LR ammo carried simply MUST be rotated quickly. The ammo will break down and become unreliable. That's not a big deal, dollar wise, but you have to be reliogious about swapping over the ammo.
    What kind of ammo do refer to? I've used some old stuff that's been laying around a cabin (not even in a box) and never a problem. Never carried though...maybe sweat????
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  10. #25
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    I wouldn't carry a .22 for CCW...UNLESS, I had nothing else I could carry or because of some disability it was the only caliber I could handle.

    As the old saying goes, I'd rather score a hit with a .22 than 10 misses with a .45.
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LBrombach View Post
    What kind of ammo do refer to? I've used some old stuff that's been laying around a cabin (not even in a box) and never a problem. Never carried though...maybe sweat????
    I don't know how many rounds of .22 I've shot but I've been shooting it off and on for over 35 years. Every so often I'll get some that will misfire. Rotate the round in the chamber and strike again and it will often fire. I just shot up some stuff that had been stored in climate control that was ten years old. 200 rounds and two misfires. Not bad but I've had brand new stuff do the same thing. Rare but it does happen.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    But in a life or death situation having a round most known for missfires (which the 22LR is) just dosent make since. Rimfire is cheap but is also one round that is known for having missfires more than any other round.

    From personal experience it really dosent matter which brand, because even the best of them will missfire on you, more so than I've experienced with any other caliber of ammo.

    If a person feels the need to carry a 22 LR for defense, take the time to train (wow five words with a "t" starting them) for head shots, as a 22LR and 25ACP are known as "nose guns" ...... ie stick the barrel into their nose and pull the trigger. That is where you'll have your best effect.
    Steve
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    I guess I've been lucky. I've shot somewhere in the nieghborhood of 20,000 .22 rounds, and I've never had a single one fail to fire on the first trigger pull. I've never had any other round fail to fire either, for that matter. Most of it was new ammo, but some old stuff too.

    Heres to good luck,

    Lloyd

    ps: I'm not advocating the .22 as a defensive gun, unless your only other choices were .25 and .32, or you simply can't handle at least a .380 or a 9. I'm just bantering about the cartridge.
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  14. #29
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    Former President Ronald Regan ( rest in peace) could have some choice information about the.22's abilities .

    One almost took him out .

  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    Your right Arizonut, you'll also notice that I mentioned the other two who got hit that day, but dropped immediatly. Regan didnt even realize he was hit until about three minutes after behing shoved into the limo, and it took hes PSO doing a pat down on him to find blood to realize he had been hit. One of my reasons for being against a 22 for defense. I dont really care if the BG dies or not, not my intent to kill him/her, it is however very important to me that I stop them as immediatly as I can to prevent then from doing or continuing to do what made me shoot them in the first place. Thus I want a fighting caliber in my pistol and the minimum I am comfortable with is a quality JHP in 9mm (again minimum).
    Steve
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