Guilty of Mental Illness

Guilty of Mental Illness

This is a discussion on Guilty of Mental Illness within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As featured in Psychiatric Times: Guilty of Mental Illness by William Kanapaux January 2004, Vol. XXI, Issue 1 On any given day, it is estimated ...

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    Guilty of Mental Illness

    As featured in Psychiatric Times:

    Guilty of Mental Illness

    by William Kanapaux

    January 2004, Vol. XXI, Issue 1

    On any given day, it is estimated that about 70,000 inmates in U.S. prisons are psychotic. Anywhere from 200,000 to 300,000 male and female prison inmates suffer from mental disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and major depression. Prisons hold three times more people with mental illness than do psychiatric hospitals, and U.S. prisoners have rates of mental illness that are up to four times greater than rates for the general population.

    These are the findings of a report by Human Rights Watch, released Oct. 22, 2003. Many of the statistics cited by the organization have been released by various organizations and agencies, but the 215-page report provides a more complete picture of the U.S. prison system as the nation's primary mental health care facilities. The complete report is available on their Web site at <www.hrw.org/reports/2003/USA1003/USA1003.pdf>.

    "Ill Equipped: U.S. Prisons and Offenders with Mental Illness" resulted from two years of research and hundreds of interviews with mental health care experts, prisoners, correction officials and attorneys. It reported that few prisons offer adequate mental health care services and that the prison environment is dangerous and debilitating for prisoners who have mental illness. These prisoners are victimized by other inmates, punished by prison staff for behaviors associated with their illnesses and often placed in highly restrictive cells that exacerbate their symptoms.

    The U.S. prison system is "not only serving as a warehouse for the mentally ill, but, by relying on extremely restrictive housing for mentally ill prisoners, it is acting as an incubator for worse illness and psychiatric breakdowns," according to the report.

    The high prevalence of mental illness in the criminal justice system is related to several factors that psychiatrists should care about, Fred Osher, M.D., director of the Center for Behavioral Health, Justice and Public Policy at the University of Maryland, told Psychiatric Times.

    The factors that contribute to a person being in jail in the first place relate to inadequate access to quality behavioral health services, Osher told PT. Without these services, people with mental illnesses often engage in behaviors that capture the attention of law enforcement and lead to arrests.

    The majority of people with mental illness in the criminal justice system are there for misdemeanors and crimes of survival, according to Osher. He said, "There's a whole host of folks who land in the criminal justice system because of their behavioral disorders." The problem primarily affects people on the margins of society. They are often minorities, almost always impoverished and disabled by their illness.

    The federal government's war on drugs has swept up people with mental illness at higher rates than those for the general population because more people with mental illness use and abuse drugs, Osher said. He added, "I think we want to watch the policy around punishment versus treatment, and we want to be advocates for treatment first."

    There is also a high prevalence of people coming into the mental health care system with a history of involvement with criminal justice. Mental health care professionals need to be aware of this and think about the necessary communications with law enforcement and correctional supervision officials. "I think the issue is that many folks in mental health care don't want to work with people who have a criminal justice history, but they do anyway," Osher said. "They're just not looking for it."

    The general consensus within the criminal justice system is that people with serious mental illness should not be there. It is a bad situation for both the prisoners and the facilities.

    "We hear that everywhere," Chris Koyanagi, policy director at the Washington, D.C.-based Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, told PT. "From jails all over the country, from prison administrators, from senior correctional administrators."

    Inmates with mental illness are often punished for their symptoms. Being disruptive, refusing to obey orders, and engaging in acts of self-mutilation and attempted suicide can all result in punitive action. As a result, the report noted, prisoners with mental illness often have extensive disciplinary histories.

    Frequently, the prisoners end up in isolation units. "In the most extreme cases, conditions are truly horrific," the report stated, adding:

    Mentally ill prisoners locked in segregation with no treatment at all; confined in filthy and beastly hot cells; left for days covered in feces they have smeared over their bodies; taunted, abused, or ignored by prison staff; given so little water during summer heat waves that they drink from their toilet bowls. ... Suicidal prisoners are left naked and unattended for days on end in barren, cold observation cells. Poorly trained correctional officers have accidentally asphyxiated mentally ill prisoners whom they were trying to restrain.

    Root Causes

    The report found that the high incarceration rate for people with mental illness is a direct result of underfunded and fragmented services. "Chronically underfunded, the existing mental health system today does not reach and provide mental health treatment to anywhere near the number of people who need it," it explained.

    Public mental health care systems are stretched for money, according to Koyanagi. And they have people within their priority population who demand services and are responsive to less expensive treatments. "Those folks tend to get their needs met," she said.

    People with serious mental illness who are left out of services are more difficult to reach and more difficult to treat because of the nature of their illnesses, she said. They may be dually diagnosed or already homeless.

    Koyanagi noted that, from a cynical perspective, it can be said that criminalization is to the advantage of public mental health care systems. "The system can pretend they're not there."

    When these individuals do leave the criminal justice system, they often can't get into local community mental health care programs, just as they can't get into public housing. "They're deemed unsuitable for that particular program because of their record," she said.

    Over the last several decades, states have emptied their psychiatric hospitals without moving sufficient resources into community-based programs. Meanwhile, overall prison populations have soared.

    It is tempting for people to conclude that a causal relationship exists between the decreased number of people in state psychiatric hospitals and the increased number of inmates with mental illness, Osher said, but the data do not support that belief.

    Over the last 20 years, the U.S. prison population has experienced an enormous increase, with about 3% of the adult population now under some form of jail or correctional supervision, he said. Consequently, the problem has more to do with the way that people get arrested. People who are visibly homeless or have drug and alcohol problems are landing in jails and prisons with greater frequency.

    The jails themselves represent a public health opportunity, according to Osher. Given estimates that about 15% to 17% of people coming into jails have a serious mental illness and that there are 11 million arrests a year, "that's a huge number of folks who are mostly not connected with systems of care." Screening programs could help identify those people so that they can get connected with appropriate treatment programs.

    People who are privately insured are not immune from run-ins with the criminal justice system. A privately insured person with bipolar disorder can run into serious problems during a manic episode. In such cases, encounters with the legal system are usually less harmful, Koyanagi said. Often these individuals can be stabilized and returned to services within the community.

    The people who tend to get stuck in the criminal justice system usually have long records, she told PT. "It doesn't just happen once, it happens again and again because nothing is done to deal with the underlying problems. And you end up in prison because you have a long rap sheet."

    Koyanagi agreed that drug crimes are a major contributor to the growing number of mentally ill in jails and prisons. Whether a user or a seller, people with co-occurring mental illness and substance abuse get swept up by punitive drug penalties, she said.
    Efforts to Respond

    Koyanagi and Osher both served on the steering committee for the Criminal Justice/Mental Health Consensus Project Report, which was issued in 2002. The project represented an unprecedented national effort to bring together federal policy-makers with criminal justice and mental health care professionals to create a more responsive system for addressing the needs of people with mental illness who are at risk of involvement or are already involved with the criminal justice system.

    Jail and prison overcrowding issues are high on the priority lists of wardens and sheriffs in this country, and correction officials are clamoring for improved mental health treatment in communities to deal with this, Osher said. Because of the high rates of people with serious mental illness in the criminal justice system and the problems they create in terms of service utilization and jail management, the mental health care field has partners in law enforcement and the courts and among corrections personnel.

    "When you go before a state legislature and advocate for better mental health services as a psychiatrist, it seems self-serving," Osher said. "But when you go before them as a warden or a sheriff or a police officer, folks listen."

    The first recommendation in the Human Rights Watch report, which drew upon the work of the Consensus Project, is for enactment of the Mentally Ill Offender Treatment and Crime Reduction Act, which was introduced in 2003 by Sen. Mike DeWine (R-Ohio). On Oct. 29, 2003, the U.S. Senate unanimously passed the bill, which would provide five-year grants to states and localities that could be used for mental health courts, in-jail treatment, transitional services and training. The bill now awaits action in the House, where it was introduced by Rep. Ted Strickland (D-Ohio).

    The Bazelon Center is concerned that if the bill passes, the money will be spent to build up mental health services within jails and prisons without focusing on community-based services that would keep people out of the criminal justice system in the first place, Koyanagi said. Nothing in the bill prevents the money being used primarily or exclusively for services in jails and prisons, she said. The Bazelon Center feels that services in these facilities should be the responsibility of criminal justice agencies.

    Mental health care systems need to develop evidence-based services such as assertive community treatment, which takes an intensive team approach to helping a person receive treatment and supports, and integrated substance abuse services, Koyanagi said. While funding services within the criminal justice system deals with the immediate problem of what to do with a prisoner who is psychotic, it is a temporary, not a systemic, solution...

    The full article can be found at; http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p040101a.html
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


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    Treatment for prisoners with mental illness

    As reported by WABC-DT (NY):

    Treatment for prisoners with mental illness

    (New York - WABC, April 9, 2007) - The figures are staggering. In the past 15 years, the number of inmates with mental illnesses in New York state prisons has grown by 71 percent.
    An equally staggering number of them end up in disciplinary lockdown, often 23 hours a day. Now there is a growing call to address the crisis amid one family's heartbreaking story.

    The Investigators' Sarah Wallace has more.

    It's easy to dismiss prison inmates as someone else's problem, but in New York alone, it's estimated more than 3,000 inmates with mental illness are released every year into our communities. Many of them have spent months, even years in total isolation, with virtually no therapy.

    "I'm afraid of them killing my son, that's what I'm afraid of," Barbara Smalls said. "Because he doesn't know when to back down."

    Barbara Smalls has good reason to worry. For the past year and a half, her mentally ill son, Wayne, has been hit with a series of disciplinary charges after being involved in escalating confrontations with prison correction officers upstate. He's now in isolation at Southport Correctional facility, in what's called the SHU, special housing unit.

    "He's confined 23 hours a day in a cell, and he's let out one hour for recreation," Barbara Smalls said. "They had him shackled from his wrist down to his feet, to his ankles, in the cell."

    The family has documented a history of mental and emotional problems that date back to Wayne's childhood.

    "He was diagnosed by several doctors, bi-polarism, ADHD, manic depressive, anxiety, panic, schizophrenia," Barbara said.

    "You'll look a him and say, 'This guy's a nice guy, when he's on his medication.' When he's off of it? Freddie Kruger," father James Smalls said.

    Wayne Smalls was first sent to prison in 2002 on a weapons charge, and was supposed to come home this June. But then he was accused of trying to assault staff and given four months in isolation. Smalls asked for help in a prison class and was accused of interfering and violating orders.

    He's back in isolation at Southport. Jack Beck, an attorney for a prison watchdog group says Smalls' experience is typical.

    "Often people with mentally illness start their SHU sentence not because they've done some terrible act, but they've done some smaller act," Beck said. "But then, once their in this environment, that is so difficult for them to cope with, they start yelling and screaming and just being non-cooperative."

    Last month, Mrs. Smalls received a letter from a fellow SHU inmate who claimed he'd seen Wayne beaten by officers who "broke him up real badly."

    That inmate's parents, who live in Brooklyn, say they've heard repeated horror stories from their son about the SHU.

    "And I keep asking what's going on, and he says, 'Ma, it's like being in hell,'" the inmate's mother, Grace Banton said.

    "What concerned him about Wayne is that he would have died and nobody would have known nothing," father Gilmore Banton said.

    The Superintendent at Southport told the Smalls family an investigation showed use of force was necessary when Wayne refused to comply, that he wasn't seriously injured by staff.

    "They're taking his frustrations as a sign of him being violent and not him having a mental illness," Smalls' brother, William, said. "They're taking his sickness as an act of violence."

    "Instead of having mental health beds, we have prisons and jails for the mentally ill," Beck said. "And that is the story."

    Advocates are now pushing for a state law that would prohibit mentally ill inmates from being placed in the SHU. But Wayne Smalls has been ordered to stay for at least six more months.

    "They don't know Wayne like I know him, and I just can't let this matter, go," Mrs. Smalls said. "I can't."

    Incredibly, there is no limit on time in the SHU, so inmates are racking up years and years in isolation.

    Tuesday at 6 p.m., we'll meet one of them. He is a former inmate who spent 10 years on and off in 23-hour lockdown. He'll talk about his attempts at suicide and his downward spiral locked in a box.

    It is a disturbing portrait that certainly raises an issue of cruel and unusual punishment.

    (Copyright 2007 WABC-TV)

    The story can be found at; http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=5192019

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Criminal Justice System Involvement of People with Serious Mental Illnesses

    As featured at the Judge David L. Bazelon Center for Mental Health:

    Fact Sheet #1
    Criminal Justice System Involvement of People with Serious Mental Illnesses

    Overview

    Large numbers of individuals with mental illnesses are in jail or prison today. While mental health advocates have for many years been distressed about the percentage of people with mental illnesses who are arrested or held in jail or prison, their growing numbers and the severity of their problems have recently raised concern to new levels in criminal justice circles.

    Police are frustrated by repeat encounters with people who are causing problems in their communities and are clearly in need of mental health treatment. Officers are annoyed about the time necessary to transport these individuals to mental health facilities, taking them away from other duties—particularly when, as often happens, they see the same person causing the same disruptions only a few days later.

    Those who run jails and prisons have also grown increasingly frustrated about strange and sometimes dangerous behaviors in their facilities. They are concerned about the safety both of the individual with a mental illness and about staff and other inmates, and feel a strong sense of outrage that the inmates need help rather than punishment. The financial burden of increased personnel—both for corrections and mental health staff—for suicide watches, and additional overtime is also an issue.

    Finally, everyone—law enforcement, corrections officials, families, the community and the individuals themselves—is frustrated about the never-ending cycle as, with needs unmet, people with serious mental illnesses get caught up in a pattern of recidivism.

    There is a better way. Many communities across the country are beginning to address this issue through collaborative approaches involving both the criminal justice system and the public mental health system. Unfortunately, most of these initiatives are small, with minimal effects on overall numbers. And in most communities a comprehensive approach has not been taken across the different stages of criminal justice system involvement, such as pre-booking, post-booking, at arraignment or upon release.

    Before initiating solutions, communities need to know the answers to several key questions:

    * Who are these individuals with serious mental illnesses and what do they need in order to break out of a cycle of criminal justice involvement?
    * How significant is the problem—what are the numbers?
    * What alternative approaches can be taken, and how well have those alternatives worked in communities where they have been tried?
    * What will all this cost? Are there offsetting costs that help to reduce overall community costs?
    * What is the appropriate role of the mental health system? Do specific services need to be in place to create a different outcome for these people?
    * Will the community be safe if we take a different approach?

    This set of fact sheets attempts to answer those questions.

    Studies of people with mental illnesses in the criminal justice system reveal some important background facts:

    * The increase in criminal justice involvement by individuals with serious mental illnesses between 1975 and 1985 (commonly attributed, without data, to deinstitutionalization) mirrors the overall increase in crime and incarceration during this period of time.
    * The success of jail diversion programs depends significantly on the severity of the charge, with those arrested for the most serious crimes most likely to have reductions in average length of incarceration. (Possibly because the more serious the disorder, the greater the impact of furnishing treatment.)

    Alternative and comprehensive approaches to this problem are needed. These should include:

    * improved mental health services for those with the most severe disorders, especially those with co-occurring addiction disorders, to prevent criminal justice contacts;
    collaboration between local mental health authorities and local law enforcement and corrections;
    * development of mental health programs specifically targeted to people who can be diverted from the criminal justice system and those re-entering society following a period of incarceration;
    * law enforcement diversion for minor offenders;
    * pre- andpost-booking diversion options for those who are arrested;
    * court-based diversion arrangements;
    * re-entry programs addressing the need for services, access to benefits, housing, social networks, identification and a job.

    The article can be found at; http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin...criminal1.html
    Additional parts of this feature can be found at the following...
    * Fact Sheet #2 | People with Serious Mental Illnesses in Jail and Prison - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin...criminal2.html
    * Fact Sheet #3 | Individuals with Mental Illnesses in Jail and Prison - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin...criminal3.html
    * Fact Sheet #4 | Policy to Address Issues Regarding People with Serious Mental Illnesses in the Criminal Justice System - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin...criminal4.html
    * Fact Sheet #5 | A Better Way: Programs Offering Alternatives to Incarceration - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin.../criminal5.htm
    * Fact Sheet #6 | Pre-Booking Diversion - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin.../criminal6.htm
    * Fact Sheet #7 | Post-Booking Diversion & Jail-Based Diversion Programs - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin.../criminal7.htm
    * Fact Sheet# 8 | Post-Adjudication Diversion & Court-Based Diversion Initiatives - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin.../criminal8.htm
    * Fact Sheet #9 | Comprehensive Diversion Approaches - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin.../criminal9.htm
    * Fact Sheet #10 | Re-Entry Programs, Linkages Between Jails, Prisons and Community Providers - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin...criminal10.htm
    * Fact Sheet #11 | Resource Issues - http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin...criminal11.htm

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Member Array Duncan223's Avatar
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    I think I've developed a mental illness from reading that crap.
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    The problem is that funding for State Hospitals was gutted, during the late 70s. The State facilities were "inhumane". So what better way can we deal with intractable psychotics, many of them dangerous?

    Why, lets incorporate them into society! They won't kill any working taxpayers, or roll through the corrections system, no never. Its horrible to consider committing them!

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    I'm living in a split level head!!

    There coming to take me away, ha, ha. There coming to take me away.

    It just amazes me how much compasion these idiots have for criminals. I'll bet he would happily ignore 32 dead people in order to shower his affection on the poor misunderstood VT shooter.

    I think the problem isn't so much that we have mentally ill people in prison, its that we have mentally ill people in positions to write such nonsense.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    The problem is that funding for State Hospitals was gutted, during the late 70s. The State facilities were "inhumane". So what better way can we deal with intractable psychotics, many of them dangerous?

    That's funny, because I've heard people blame the conservatives and say that it was REAGAN who closed down all the mental institutions and put the crazy people on the street. How could it have been Reagan if it was going on in the '70s?

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Duncan,

    This not crap...it is very serious and dangerous to society business.

    Data

    * Nearly two million new jail admissions are of people with mental illnesses—35,000 individuals a week.1
    * At the end of 2000, nearly one million individuals with mental illnesses were in the criminal justice system.2
    * More than 16&#37; of jail inmates have a mental illness, according to the United States Department of Justice.3
    * Seventy percent of jail inmates with mental illnesses are there for nonviolent offenses.4

    Offenders with Mental Illness

    * In Jails: 101,000 individuals with mental illnesses were inmates in local jails at year-end 2000. Of these, 63,000 had a severe mental illness.5 Jails are locally operated facilities that hold people pending arraignment or awaiting trial, conviction or sentencing. Sentencing is either to probation or incarceration in jail (generally under a year) or prison. There are 3,365 local jails.6
    * In Prisons: 201,000 individuals with mental illnesses were inmates in state (191,000 or 16.2%) and federal (10,000 or 7.9%) prisons at year-end 2000. Of these, 132,000 had a severe mental illness.7 There are 1,558 adult correctional facilities housing state prisoners and 110 facilities housing federal prisoners.
    * On Probation: 614,000 individuals (16%) with mental illnesses were on probation at year-end 2000. Of these, 315,000 had a severe mental illness.8 Probation represents a more moderate sanction than incarceration. It is generally given to offenders with few or no prior convictions or to those guilty of less serious offenses.

    Description of the Population

    New Department of Justice data confirm previous research findings that most individuals with mental illnesses in the criminal justice system have had extensive experience with both the criminal justice and mental health systems and have a severe mental disorder and poor functioning.

    As seen in this table on offenders with mental illness, on every item, in all settings—jails, state prisons, federal prisons and probation—offenders with mental illnesses are more likely than other offenders to have the reported problem.

    http://www.bazelon.org/issues/crimin...criminal3.html
    You, me, my wife and kids at schools everywhere are prey and fall victim to persons who are suffering from mental illness.
    A lack of real programs and procedures to recognize these people and provide them help before muchless after they break results in what we have been seeing year after year. Folks will scoff and laugh but at the same time those criminals who prey on us are very likely to be sufferers of mental illness. From the crazy guy who kills and then while in jail gouges his own eyes out or bites off his fingers to criminals that break into homes or mug old ladies thanks to a mental condition of having no fear of consequences, no regard for law or human life, reduced if any ability to think rationally, and/or even going to crime in order to fund their desire for drugs & alcohol dependance which itself is often associated to mental health issues.

    Institutionalization is not the only fix even as during the 80s it was Reagan that wholesale cut federal funding to states for mental health programs in order to help with fnding of his then popular tax cut initiative. The results of which were short sighted and we now have been reaping the rewards through increased crime, mismanagement of persons with mental health issues in need of aid, and marginalization ofmentalhealth in general as being a real and very relevant catalyst toward crime overall.

    Very many crimes could be prevented town, city, and country if we as a community took a more serious approcah toward mental health issues. To do so is key as helping those predators who in their delusions see us as prey will and does result in direct life saving benefits.

    The latest examples of mental health resulting in crime can be found here...
    Man Kills Houston Complex Manager, Self
    Man Facing Eviction From Houston Luxury Apartment Complex Kills Manager, Then Himself

    By JOE STINEBAKER

    HOUSTON Apr 23, 2007 (AP)— A man facing eviction from a luxury apartment complex shot and killed the manager and then himself after writing an e-mail to friends saying he had died, police said. At least two other people were injured.

    Police said the gunman first shot a neighbor through his door, then reloaded his revolver and stormed the complex's office, shooting the manager and pistol-whipping a man trying to serve the eviction notice, police said...

    The article can be found at; http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3069988
    Man and Woman Shot at Luxury Hotel
    Police Shoot and Kill Man and Woman With Gun at Orange County, Calif., Luxury Hotel

    By GILLIAN FLACCUS

    LAGUNA BEACH, Calif. Apr 23, 2007 (AP)— A man and a woman were killed at a luxury oceanfront resort when police fired into their bungalow after they refused to drop a handgun, authorities said.

    Police were called Sunday to the Montage Resort and Spa by a security guard who said a man and a woman were engaged in a domestic dispute, said police Sgt. Jason Kravetz.

    "It may not have been domestic violence, but that's how we were called to the scene," Kravetz said. "Usually in a domestic violence (case) the woman doesn't go out and try to shoot at other people."

    Several 911 callers said a naked woman was running around the hotel waving a gun, authorities said. She was distraught and periodically threatened people with the gun, Kravetz said.

    Police arrived at the pair's room minutes later, and a gun was passed between the man and the woman, who both pointed it at police, authorities said.

    Two officers fired into the room after the couple refused to drop the gun...

    The article can be found at; http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3069609
    Guns don't mug, rob, and kill people.
    People with mental health issues do.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Ex Member Array dwolsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    The problem is that funding for State Hospitals was gutted, during the late 70s. The State facilities were "inhumane". So what better way can we deal with intractable psychotics, many of them dangerous?
    My mother (who's nearly 70) has told me this many times. Back in the first half of the 1900s, people like this were kept in mental hospitals. Yeah, they probably weren't great, but they were certainly better than prisons. Also importantly, these people were kept away from the rest of society; maybe that's why there was less crime back then.

    Somewhere along the line, they turned out all the mental patients and shut down the institutions. So now we have lots of criminals, and lots of crazy homeless people.

    They definitely need to bring back state-run mental hospitals. There's a lot of people who should be kept in these places before they commit some crime. The VT shooter is a prime example of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Duncan, This not crap...it is very serious and dangerous to society business. - Janq
    That's my point. The number of psychotic killers on our streets is inexcusable and the PC mentality of not doing what needs to be done is crap. While a "normal" person doesn't commit crimes, the mens rea is the issue between a criminal mind and a mentally diseased mind. Our prisons are filled with criminals, some of which are unstable mentally, and despite their possible need for treatment, many of them are just evil bastages that should never be released into the population again.
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    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    as of 11:23 this morning Ohio has one less...

    SCOTUS refused to issue a last minute appeal...

    but wouldn't ANYONE of normal emotional constitution be depressed in prison???

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    Ex Member Array dwolsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan223 View Post
    While a "normal" person doesn't commit crimes, the mens rea is the issue between a criminal mind and a mentally diseased mind. Our prisons are filled with criminals, some of which are unstable mentally, and despite their possible need for treatment, many of them are just evil bastages that should never be released into the population again.
    I don't think anyone's arguing that mentally ill people who commit crimes should be released back into society. On the contrary, I think these people should be kept in institutions for their entire lives if necessary. That's the way it was before the government decided to get out of the mental healthcare business (and ended up building lots more prisons instead).

    Keeping a person in a sanitarium, even with medication and therapists, is probably a lot less expensive than keeping them in a maximum-security prison with armed guards. It's probably better for the person too. But the key is you have to put them in the institution before they become a hardened criminal; that means you have to have a public mental health system in place to begin with, which we don't currently. This is not a radical new idea; this is exactly the way things were in the USA for most of the 20th Century, until the 70s or so.

    By not having this system in place any more, these people are just left out on their own, and of course being anti-social to begin with, end up getting into crime. Of course, I certainly don't feel too bad if one of them gets killed during a crime, but overall, society would be better off (and there'd be less crime) if they were institutionalized early on.

  13. #13
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    I carry BG mental illness medication...24/7

    Directions say, "Caution, medication may cause drowsiness (permanently)...take three portions for BG problems...2CM/1H...

    Stay armed...stay safe!

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan223 View Post
    Our prisons are filled with criminals, some of which are unstable mentally, and despite their possible need for treatment, many of them are just evil bastages that should never be released into the population again.
    That is something to keep in mind- the DSMV IV is very much a tool to keep practioners in practice. The current model of psychotherapy denies all personal responsibility, and holds that all social deviations are manifestations of "illness". The problem is not so much whether lacking impulse-control is an illness or a lifestyle/morality choice, but recognizing that we have padded our society to the point where these individuals are living beyond their natural span. Grossman is a good starting point (and there are several others retrospectively looking at social models), recognizing that, historically, "excessively" violent behavior had a short-lived duration. Keep in mind, what would be a good bar fight, circa 1750, would be considered major mayhem today.

    Violent people went to war, they frequently travelled the known world in search of war, and either died, or hit that magical 35-odd year old mark where violent manifestation dramatically declines. Now, we house and feed them for a few years, let them roid up, and turn them loose.

    "Mental illness" can be a distracting, misleading, way of describing violators, today. It brings to mind some nebulous, hard to define, thought process that cannot be understood or predicted. That is not true. Violent behavior can be reliably predicted, and indicators of an assault can be recognized.

    Personal defense is not simply having a weapon, and being competent in its use. It should encompass some understanding of how the BGs view the world, what scenarios they try to construct to favor themselves, and what features they look for in targets. This thinking is what seperates us from the proverbial "bi-pedal cheeseburger."

    The truly mentally ill are not hard to spot- they are unable to conform themselves, socially. Socio-/psycopathy is not an illness, per se. It is a defect that the individual can control, hence the length of time serial killers are able to roam. More directly, this is the reason gang-bangers aren't turned in- they are able to relate to the community around them, in a tribal fashion (be the gang caucasian, asian, AA, whatever, the social structure is tribal).

  15. #15
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    Remember too - there are plenty of people with some kind of mental illness \ depression etc... on the streets every day - not breaking the law or causing harm to anyone. The correct medication helps and some people just have a good underlying nature that helps them deal with it. Upbringing (good parents & family values) helps a lot too.
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