Slowly converting someone? I hope so
This is a discussion on Slowly converting someone? I hope so within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Converting someone? I just might be!
I have been having an ongoing conversation with a good friend and coworker. We both have deep spiritual values ...
April 25th, 2007 06:12 PM
Slowly converting someone? I hope so
Converting someone? I just might be!
I have been having an ongoing conversation with a good friend and coworker. We both have deep spiritual values and see things in a similar light many times. The one thing we differ on is guns. She is not one to take away my rights, but she doesn’t see someone with the deep spiritual values that I have using a gun. We have talked on several occasions, but the recent VT shooting incident has brought it up once again.
While sitting over lunch, she and talked about it once again, and she still couldn’t see the need to carry one. She felt it put undue risk on everyone. I explained the huge responsibility that goes along with carrying a gun. I have also explained that the gun is the absolute last resort. Carrying a gun makes my responsibility to deescalate a situation even greater. Finding an way out or avoiding the altercation isn’t a priority but a must. I have explained the idea of stopping the threat and when the threat is stopped, I must stop, even if that means I haven’t pulled the trigger, or aimed it yet. She understands this but still just doesn’t “get it” or “understand it”.
So when this recent VT event came up over lunch. Her argument was we shouldn’t resort to guns, when we failed. We (society) failed to recognize the problem and failed to get the BG some help when he needed it. I agree, we as a society have failed in this respect, but we will fail, and fail again, and again. We need to recognize that we cannot prevent every single individual from performing bad and hideous acts, and she agreed with “I just can’t understand still, I just don’t get it”. It was at this point I asked her the following question. “If you were sitting here at this table with your family, along with myself and my family. I knew I was carrying a gun on my hip. You could see, and I know you wouldn’t like it, but there we are sitting and eating and suddenly a man comes in and starts shooting. What would you want me to do? What if I just sat there and never pulled my weapon and allowed 30 plus people to be killed. What would you want me to do? She stated “of course I would want you to use your gun, but that can’t happen here” I said can’t it happen here, it happened at Virginia Tech, it happened at Columbine, and it will happen again!” She agreed that it could happen anywhere, and with that she said “I see your point, but it still sits wrong with me.”
Although I don’t have her convinced, I have started to see a crack in her shell. I never expect her to get a CCW, and I know she has been to the range and has shot an AR15 and enjoyed it, she just has a hard time with CCW, but maybe there is hope.
"Gun Free Zones" is where only criminals carry guns.
April 25th, 2007 06:12 PM
April 26th, 2007 12:35 AM
What is your preferred outcome with this young lady?
What are you trying to accomplish?
Are you looking for her approval for you to carry? Her blessings?
If it is not in the US Constitution then the Federal Government should not be doing it.
"Carrying a gun is a social responsibility."
April 26th, 2007 04:47 PM
You did good by getting her to admit that "It" can happen anywhere. You used a good example to show this. What I find is so many people think that there is some magic solution we just haven't found yet that will solve the problem in all cases. They rely on "government" which is fallible almost by definition to come up with that solution.
Ask, "when has government ever done something well, and at an economic cost"? Answer, never. Now we have to rely on the government to do some things such as run the military. That can't be done by individuals but they don't even do that well or economically. So why do you think they could handle such a complex situation that lead to the VT killings? They can and should try, without infringing on our rights, but don't expect perfection. Since there cannot be perfection then you, the individual, must be prepared to account for your own personal safety.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
April 26th, 2007 09:03 PM
haha love your sig...poor rosie not on the view anymore.
Anyway great posts, the more info we can shell out to the sheepies, the more people we may get on our side should any anti self protection types get into a seat of real power.(no offence to your friend, she appears to be only part sheep) Also its a guilty pleasure of mine to make a extreme sheep appear uneducated in front of others. Often their arguments are emotional and erratic, whereas any educated ccw holder can rattle off facts and responsibilities(some examples in dmans post)
keep safe and shoot straight
"In those days, there was a lot more respect for other people and it showed in peoples values.... Today the word value means nothing more than something you get on the $1 menu at McDonald's." -BARK'N
April 27th, 2007 12:17 AM
Here is a fun link that uses lots of Bible verses (Assuming the person your talking to is Christian or Jewish) Probally have read it before though...still good article
Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.
April 27th, 2007 07:21 AM
I have read this before
I have read this before, but I can not say I agree with it. I do not want to start a religious debate, and I want to make very sure that people realize I am 100% a gun rights person. However, my Christian religious beliefs and deep study of the bible lead me to the opinion that much of the versus and items discussed in this are taken out of context, and given an interpetation that fits our needs, and not the originally intended message that has no connection to the spin this article puts it in.
Originally Posted by Shadowsbane
"Gun Free Zones" is where only criminals carry guns.
April 29th, 2007 03:07 AM
It seems like you have presented a very rational and excellent argument to your friend with some well thought out gems of wisdom. If you are asking for some additional information I offer what I have often used with new shooters, and converting or educating previously closed minded anti-gunners. Your friend seems like a pretty rational person so I hope what I offer below helps.
Have your friend read several of the "Armed Citizen" columns in any of the monthly NRA publications.
If she is open minded she will soon see the value of a weapon has done for what most people will see as ordinary people.
As she reads she should note how lots of the victims whose stories appear in those columns are not only ordinary people, but are quite often senior citizens... a particularly vulnerable portion of our population.
Point out to her that these stories also come straight out of the local newspapers where the incident happened and take note that they literally come from everywhere across the country. The stories are not made up by the NRA but as reported on in the local media.
From there, you can point out how not only were the police not at the scene of the crime as it happened, you can explain how the police in general can not be at the scene to prevent crime from happening, nor is it their stated purpose. Also point out in the "Armed Citizen" articles anytime the police actually praise the armed citizen for acting how they did, pointing out that even the police know and understand their limitations and the legal responsibility one has to themselves and family to be able to be responsible for their own safety.
If you are not familiar with whom Massad Ayoob is, I recommend that you become familiar with his body of work. An author of over thirty years, a Certified Lethal Force Instructor with his own world renowned school, Police Captain in New Hampshire, and court certified expert witness on lethal force issues... he has produced a large body of work that I have used to bring friends to the good side and "see the light!"
Ayoob writes two books in particular I use for arguing the point you are trying to make with your close friend. One is called "The Ayoob Files: The Book" and the other one is "The Truth About Self Protection".
The first book mentioned is a compilation of a critically acclaimed series of articles from American Handgunner Magazine that is essentially a forensic analysis of true gunfight events, their lessons learned, emotional aftermath and such from law enforcement officers and armed citizens who were forced to use a firearm to save their own life or the life of someone else.
The second book mentioned is a book where Ayoob essentially debunks countless myths surrounding the issue of Self Defense. A good portion of the book does not even relate to the use of guns however there is one chilling chapter in particular call "The Face of the Enemy" that pretty much spells out what a bad guy is and who they are. He talks about robbers, rapists and killers in a most graphic and illuminating light and with an insight that is truely chilling. It is no nonsense and factual. That chapter alone has gotten me more people who were anti-gun; see the light and the need for the average citizen being armed.
Two videotapes in particular are handy for anyone that carries a firearm. Again, both by Ayoob. The first one is "Physio-Psychological Aspects of Violent Encounters" All I can say is over 2 hours of unfriggonbelievable medical fact of what happens in the human mind and emotional state of people who face life or death encounters. And finally, "Judicious Use of Deadly Force" Essentially 2 hours of "The Rules of the Road" for using deadly force.
All of these titles and others can be found at his website (Lethal Force Institute, The Armor of New Hampshire and The Police Bookshelf):
Take care and good luck converting your friend to "The Good Side".
Last edited by Bark'n; April 29th, 2007 at 05:05 AM.
Reason: Typo's and grammer
April 29th, 2007 03:42 AM
One other thing... Self Defense is Personal! She has to look at her self and ask herself is her life of value? Is her life worth more than the price some scumbag places on it when he intends to rob, rape or kill her?
Is her life worth more to her family and loved ones, children or future children than to have it snuffed out for the $30 in her purse.
What kind of empty cavity will be left in the hearts, souls and lives of her family and loved ones if she is gone forever, lost at the hands of some cheap thug. That loss will be felt forever and for those left behind will never dull or go away!
If not for herself, she owes her family and loved ones to fight for her life with every fiber of her body at the hands of a vicious assault.
It has been said by many a wise men, "When what you need is a gun to defend your life... there is no substitute for it." The gun is the great equalizer... it is what allows the meek to repel the monsters who are bigger and stronger and prey on those who would without one, surely peril!
I have been a paramedic for 28 years and been in EMS for longer than that. I have also been a swat medic for about 8 years. I deal with death for a living and have seen it in all the gruesome ways most people cannot fathom. I know how cheap life is considered. For some, it's a 16 year old boy, knifed & killed over a $2 pool bet.
When I worked in the inner city, there were maybe 4 or 5 times I wasn't sure I would get to go home. A couple of them were life-changing events and one had a direct effect on me joining the Marine Corps. For me, my life has value. Value to my community and value to my wife, my friends and my family. I choose to carry a gun because I know how little it takes to snuff out a life and I am not going to lose my life to some friggon crack head with a knife over the $5 dollars in my pocket.
Having a gun is no guarantee I will emerge the winner, however I have trained and studied and lived self defense as a religion for over 20 years and I pray to almighty god that that commitment will help me carry the day... to be enough so that my family and loved ones are not left with that empty hole in their heart and soul because I am no longer with them. My gun is but a tool; a piece of "emergency life-saving equipment" and it is not my only tool in the toolbox!
(Sorry for being so wordy)
Stay Safe and Come Home Alive!
Last edited by Bark'n; April 29th, 2007 at 04:46 AM.
Reason: Typo's, grammer and content. Sorry it was late!
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