need to go to hospital?
i was wondering, since here it is illegal to carry in hospitals,
what if you are seriously injured (ei. heart attack) while you are carrying? either. a) if u were unconscious and got taken to the hospital and nobody knew u were carrying until you got there and the doctor was like well gee whats this?! or b) you were hurt badly, enough that you couldn't swing by home first and drop off the gun, but were able to communicate.
also, applying this somewhat to other situations in general. what if you have to go to a pistol free area and are carrying and dont have somewhere to drop it off first?
Attending EMS/LEOs will put your gun in a secure place when they pick you up. Can't imagine many guns make it to ER.
Well, as far as hospitals go this question comes up every now and then. If you are unable to speak, it is assumed that you will be taking a ride in an ambulance, and the paramedics will find your weapon. It would either probably be turned over to the police who would store it for you, or hospital security who would store it for you for the duration of your stay along with other valuables like your wallet and cell phone ect...
Same goes pretty much if you can communicate, if you are that badly hurt you are either riding in an ambulance, and would tell the paramedics/police, or are being driven by someone, so you could leave it with them.
If you are unconsciene and make it to ER armed; there needs to be a LONG talk with the EMS/LEO personel in you part of the world. Unless you are bleeding from an obvious wound; they should be looking for a cause requiring their placing their hands on all the places where a gun might be concealed. They would also be looking in most pockets for drugs/meds and ID/wallet so pocket carry is covered.
If they happen to miss the weapon and you make it to the ER; well you were taken into the hospital without you knowledge and therefore you are not responsible for the weapons presences in the hospital. OK, MI law may not see it that way but I would hope a judge would say something like "Don't do it again!" and let you off. I would also hope the judge would give the LEO's on the scene of your event a lecture about how unwise they are!
I have had 2 CCW permit holders ride in my ambulance as patients in Missouri. Neither of them were in real serious condition or unconscious but did need ambulance transport. Both patients informed me they were CCW holders and were armed.
In one case, Missouri State Highway Patrol Trooper on scene at the car wreck took possession of his firearm and the CCW holder made arrangements with the Trooper on where and how to retreive it when he was released.
On the other occasion I took possession of the weapon, made it safe and unloaded and placed it in a ziplock bag, wrapped it in a towel so it was not visible and had the city police meet us at the hospital we were transporting to in order to take possession of the weapon. The hospital staff never saw the weapon and the exchange was made in the garage.
In each case, it was no big deal and everything worked out ok. However, I am a CCW holder myself and can not attest to crews working on an ambulance who may have a "gun phobia."
In follow-up, I did speak with an official from our State Bureau of EMS and they pointed out that in Missouri, while it is certainly not encouraged for EMS crews to be armed, there is No State Statutes which prohibits weapons on ambulances and that I handled both incidents in an appropriate manner.
I am also a tactical medic with a county sheriff's agency and have not found it necessary to be armed on the ambulance even though I am when with the Sheriff's Dept. and off duty.
I would like to point out that I also have worked in the State of Missouri where I worked for a small municipal EMS service where one of the City Police Officers was also one of our part time EMT's on the ambulance. He had on occasions responded to calls while off duty, when needed wearing his off-duty SP-101 in an open belt holster.
In summary, in Missouri, it's not that big of an issue unless you get an ambulance crew who has "gun phobia."
Paramedic probably has some sage advice and insight...let's see what he says.
Legally I'd think that being transported to a hospital would be a non-issue. However, as MO Medic pointed out, the health care system in MI (and everywhere else I'd assume) is teeming with gun-phobes, and having to deal with them would be a larger problem. With any luck at all, the ambulance crew will handle it. Having spent a lot of time working in an ER, I can say with confidence that if your gun makes it into the ER, people there will most likely freak out. In the end, hospital security will most likely take charge of the weapon and treat it like other valuables that are routinely collected from patients...after it is properly "inspected" and otherwise pawed at very throughly. Your best bet is to do whatever you can to make sure that the gun doesn't make it into the hospital.
On other MI gun free victim zones...they are just that. Do not test them.
As someone who has worked in both EMS and in the ER, I have run across more guns than you would ever imagine. (part of big city, bad neighborhood issues). For the most part the guns I came across where off of BG's who was taken out by another BG. However, there where several innocent CCWers who were involved in car accidents.
In all cases, we called the PD over, and had them take possession of it. I would document it in our records, and more than once I was called into the office for documenting the make and type, caliber, serial number and the LEO I turned it over to on my paperwork. (My response, I am told to document everything, so I do, are you asking me to not document what I find? They would shut up really quick).
The police would treat the gun as evidence. Although I never worked with the patients to the point of them getting their gun back (once they left the ER, I was done with them). It was my understanding that once the police investigation is done into the accident, status of CCW confirmed, the gun would returned if it was legally owned and carried.
On a side note, my documentation of the gun including serial number helped one patient when I got a call from a lawyer thanking me for my documentation. The LEO I turned it over to, denied he ever received it, and he did not know my documentation existed. The LEO was placed on suspension, investigated and eventually removed from his job.
thanks for the replies. thats about what i expected to hear.
hopefully ill never need to use this little piece of information :)
Weapons and EMS
My agency has no written policy, nor does the County ambulance agency. Training is very minimal and consists of "no touch call cop". We normally transfer firearms to a law enforcement agency or to hospital "security":tired:. In my 10 years or so as a fire department EMT and Paramedic, it's been an issue very few times. I have seen crews talk guuns with patients, I have seen a crew that would not let an armed Corrections Officer in the ambulance to escort a prisoner. Just like the rest of the world, it takes all kinds of people. When I was a green medic student, I did bring an old lady into the ER that was armed. Peaceful, but armed. The hospitals in my area will take posession of firearms like any other valuables, but insist on them being unloaded by LEO or "security":tired:
Sorry to all the dedicated security profesionals, but my girlfriend works at a local hospital. One guard is deaf, the other has COPD. None are in their youthful fighting trim, shall we say.
Anyway, might I suggest stopping by your local fire or EMS station and asking the crews? They shoud be able to tell you the policy and written guidelines as well as the way it really gets done on the
Here in Texas, when I suffered my OJI, I woke up in the ambulance on the way into the hospital. The medica informed me that he had #1 secured my weapon in a lock box in the ambulance and would leave it with me and the keys once I arrived at the hospital and #2 had found my id and notified my agency. I woke up again in the ER and sitting right next to my bed was a lock box and around my neck was a chain with a key on it. Now that was sweet treatment and I felt special....till a week later when I called the medic to thank him and he explained it was just standard policy for them.
Hate to break it to you, but in all the hospitals in the metro detroit area, the "safe place" that they store your valuables is in a plastic bag under your bed. The only time anything gets checked is if you have a big chunk of cash or something. Wallet, purse, cel phone? In the bag. Your belongings are not secure whatsoever. Uness something has changed in the couple years since I've switched careers. Doubt it though.
Originally Posted by buckeye07
Oh, we had no policy on finding a gun either, and I've only ever found them on bad guys (the cops always found them first, actually) or on cops. If we were taking a cop to ER, there were always plenty of other cops running road block for us. They would either get the gun before we left the scene for the ER or as soon as we got to ER.
I can speak from first hand experience working in a ER. First off, believe me, you are lucky if you're still clothed by the time the EMS brings you to the ER. Second, if we are undressing you because you are unable to do it yourself and we find a weapon, we notify our HPD security officers that you are in the ER with a weapon, they will come and handle the firearm, look for your ID to verify your identification and to make sure are you legally carrying. From there, I believe it goes to the station but not sure myself. Of course, this is just one hospital in the Texas Medical Center. Not sure if it is the same in Dallas, San Antonio, or even outside of Texas. But then again, it's Texas.
Great discussion. Very thought-provoking.
Even though I'm an ex-LEO, that was a long time ago. But at accident/crime scenes I always tried to do a pat down as a courtesty to the EMT's who were transporting. Since everybody I transported got a pat down, I figured the same applied to an ambulance. Can't remember ever having a real problem once the patient reached the hospital, but that was in a major county ER that got a lot of gunshot victims and everything else.
These days, I'd be more worried about ever seeing my pistol again than in any legal problems, since I have a valid CCW permit.