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Virginia governor closes gun loophole

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#1 ·

Virginia governor closes gun loophole

By BOB LEWIS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 12 minutes ago


RICHMOND, Va. - The governor on Monday closed the loophole in state law that allowed the Virginia Tech gunman to pass a federal background check and buy the weapons used in the massacre.

Gov. Timothy M. Kaine issued an executive order requiring that a database of people banned from buying guns include anyone who is found to be dangerous and ordered to undergo involuntary mental health treatment.

Seung-Hui Cho had been ordered to undergo psychiatric counseling after a judge ruled that he was a danger to himself.

But because Cho was treated as an outpatient and never committed to a mental health hospital, the court's decision was not entered into the database that gun dealers must check before selling a weapon.

The database "should include any determination that someone is mentally ill and so dangerous to himself or others as to warrant involuntary treatment," Kaine said in a statement.

Cho, a 23-year-old Virginia Tech senior described as a troubled loner, bought his guns legally through gun shops. He gunned down 32 people in a residence hall and a classroom building before killing himself.

No motive has been established for his rampage.
 
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#2 ·
I saw that. I'm having trouble understanding why we're letting foreign nationals buy guns, anyhow, regardless if they're nuts or not... it's not an issue of race... just of common sense in the 21st century.
 
#3 ·
Thing is - if a guy is legal - ergo a permanent res' then he has most of the rights we enjoy.

I rebuilt my gun collection to a great extent while having my green card, and before I gained citizenship.

So - seems it is less an issue of being able to buy guns .... plus we know guns can be ''aquired'' by anyone with enough cash, contacts and determination ........... more the state of mind aspect, which could apply to anyone at all.
 
#4 ·
I wonder why we allow foreign nationals buy guns. If they are on a program to become a citizen it is one thing but a green card (work visa)holder is not someone I would allow to purchase weapons. In fact I believed they could not. Maybe the governor of Virginia should have looked at this?
 
#5 ·
...

If they are on a program to become a citizen it is one thing but a green card (work visa)holder is not someone I would allow to purchase weapons.
Why? Are you implying that just because they are not full citizens that they shouldn't be able to defend themselves?

If they are here legally and are abiding the law, are not mentally unstable, and are not criminals, I see no issue in allowing them to purchase firearms.

just my opinion.
 
#6 ·
Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro people having the right to defend themselves. It just gives me pause because 100% of the 9-11 hijackers were in the country legally. Hmmm....
 
#7 ·
Well, thank goodness that loophole has been closed. I'm sure that Cho would have been stopped had this been in place a couple of months ago... (dripping with sarcasm)

"Welcome to America, you 99.99999% who are hard-working and well-meaning! We will not let you defend yourself. Enjoy your stay."

I know, I know... preaching to the choir but doggone it, this stuff torques me off. Cho was sick and intent upon harming others. He would obtain the tools he needed regardless of the laws put in place.

Cuban cigars are illegal in the U.S. but I bet we could all go find a box this afternoon.

Crystal meth is illegal but I'd bet both yours and my bottom dollars that it is for sale from someone within 20 miles of where you are when you read this post.

Ok, climbing down from soap box. Thanks for listening.
 
#10 ·
You're right PapaScout.

On top of that, just wait and watch some anti gun judge order a man to undergo psychiatric counseling during a divorce where his spouse said (with no proof required) that she thought he was a danger to her.

After all, the anti's don't believe in the 2nd Amendment anyway. So what's the big deal to them?

Talk about the law of unintended consequences. The conservatives were ticked off at Kilgore so we ended up with Kaine.

Remember he was the one as Richmond mayor who paid for the million moms march bus trip with city money.

Chip, chip, chip. Hear that? Just a little more chipping away at our rights.
 
#12 ·
On top of that, just wait and watch some anti gun judge order a man to undergo psychiatric counseling during a divorce where his spouse said (with no proof required) that she thought he was a danger to her.
Anyone that has not yet been involved in a divorce listen up to what was just said by PaulG. During my divorce from bitch wife #1, she filed a compliant accusing me of threatening to shoot her friends -- not true at all, but in today's climate I probably would have had my firearms confiscated. After all, anyone that owns AR-15s, AKs, and thousands of rounds of ammunition must be crazy -- at least to a female judge. Another increasingly common divorce tactic for women is an accusation of sexual assult on a daughter. This one didn't happen to me, but I have seen it happen to a lot of other men.
 
#11 ·
Cho, a 23-year-old Virginia Tech senior described as a troubled loner, bought his guns legally through gun shops. He gunned down 32 people in a residence hall and a classroom building before killing himself.
I'm getting tired of hearing that he bought them legally. HE DIDN'T. He lied on the form, which was illegal to do. Just because the information wasn't available through NICS doesn't mean it didn't matter. He never should have been able to buy the guns, but he lied to get around the system (not that I would have expected him or anyone to tell the truth on that form if they want the gun but aren't supposed to be able to buy it).

GRRR.
 
#14 ·
I did what I preemptively could in a divorce situation and had all of my guns locked up at a mutual friends place until the divorce was over and emotions cooled. It didn't matter to the legal system but I think it showed my Axe... errrrrr... excuse me... my X, that I was serious about it not being an issue.
 
#16 ·
Well, actually, no, he wasn't a citizen. He was a foreign national with permanent resident status. This grants him many of the rights of citizenship, but does not make him a citizen.
 
#17 ·
So we are clear, A resident Visa is not the same as a work visa and not the same as a Student Visa.

And I still fail to see what the legal status has to do with the VT massacre.
 
#18 ·
http://www.vdare.com/misc/walsh_interview.htm


Immigrant Crime: Who Wants To Know?
By David Walsh

Recently, while exploring the incidence of immigrant crime and its impact on the US, I was stymied. Not by the dearth of information: it’s there if you really want it. What was troubling was the lengths to which people who rely on such statistics (here, gang investigators and the INS) will go to avoid discussing them. Some officials were fearful, some indifferent, others seemed to question my motives. It all seemed to mirror the big media’s tendency to skirt the issue.

Richard H. Ward, Dean and Director of the Center of Criminal Justice at Texas’s Sam Houston State University (and an ex-NYPD detective), recently published an interesting study in Criminal Justice 2000 called “The Internationalization of Criminal Justice” about the importation of crime: narco-terrorism, street crime and gangs, home invasions, credit-card and staged-accident scams, identity theft, and white slavery.

“Globalization,” Ward observed in his introduction, “is producing ... new challenges for criminal justice practitioners and researchers.... To the law enforcement community, particularly at the local level, global crime is frequently linked to illegal aliens” (now officially recorded as entering the US at a rate of some 25,000 each month, and probably far higher in actuality). At the same time, “criminal activity by ... legal immigrants ... has grown considerably.”

Despite this, though, the watchword in the States is… accommodation. Police, intelligence agencies, the courts, parole officers, social workers, and health professionals—as well as Americans at large—all must accustom themselves, it seems, to immigrant crime.

The dimensions of the problem loom so large, Ward suggested, that even basic American freedoms may be abridged in the name of the greater good. What most caught my attention in his article, though, was a passage having to do with disincentives to investigation and enforcement.

Some of these already hobble the police and the INS. “In areas with large immigrant communities,” Ward found, “political pressure is frequently applied to discourage immigration authorities and law enforcement from ‘searching out’ illegals.”

In an interview with Prof. Ward, I asked about this statement—a confirmation of something long suspected though rarely discussed in the media. He began by suggesting that several factors are at work here.

“Over the past decade, in many cases from a criminal justice standpoint [officials] have stepped back and said, ‘Hey, we’re just not going to look at this.’" (Immigrant crime, that is.) “It’s a sign of the times; the feeling, you know, that everybody makes mistakes [like crossing the border illegally?], and there’s an unwillingness to apply more law enforcement.” In a further reflection of current thinking, Ward added, “‘Let’s not cause any problems for our neighbors (and trading partners)--particularly Mexico.’" He declined to be specific, but suggested that officialdom exercises - quite properly - an overweening caution in discussing the matter.

Yes, but although it’s clear that only a minority of newcomers is involved in crime (“less than one-in-ten,” Ward guesses), aren’t We The People entitled to know the extent of it?

Well, no—that’s not politically feasible. “There is no way to sort out the numbers of foreign criminals,” Ward says. “That would take raiding sweat shops and the like, and that gets into how far you should go.” (To liberals, of course, the very term “raid” is ominous.)

Then, of course, there’s the ultimate question:

Why bother to study immigrant crime, anyway? Even with upwards of fifteen million illegals in the US today, “very few people care - as long as there are jobs.”

When I suggested to Prof. Ward that this laissez faire attitude towards foreign crime was shared by our government, he agreed with me. “That’s probably a good word. Unemployment is so low in the United States that very few people are paying attention.... An example is the large numbers of Asians, especially Chinese illegals, who no one [in the criminal justice system] seems to be paying much attention to.” How come? Oh—“They’re not much involved in crime, or it’s Chinese-on-Chinese crime.”

In any event, Ward said, the crooks melt into the immigrant community where they’re sometimes sheltered, but in any case untracked by police, INS, or other authorities. Unnoticed or not, Ward estimates that over 100,000 Chinese alone are smuggled into the country every year. Invariably, they end up as “slave laborers” for the Triads, or Chinese mafia.

As for Latinos, by far the largest contributor to the U.S.’s newcomer population, Ward quipped, “There’s this juxtaposition: people who want to bring [immigrants] in for farming, and others, like some ranchers who want to get rid of them.” (While trespassing across ranch land, immigrants sometimes steal equipment and damage private property.)

But Professor Ward turned somber when the discussion turned to shifts in public sentiment during an economic downturn. The Border Patrol, entrusted with guarding America’s frontiers, is “poorly funded” in spite of the booming economy. Ward endorses beefing up the BP with funds, plenty more personnel, better pay and equipment—improvements he thinks are unlikely, however. Washington gives “a wink and nod” to the porous border, since “the government relies on foreign workers and their cheap labor.” And so the U.S. Border Patrol, the professor commented with notable understatement, “finds itself in the unenviable position of trying to curtail what some view as a monumental problem.”

So what about foreign terrorists, presumably a major concern of this nation? Can’t they take advantage of the same lax border controls as the average Mexican peasant? Ward agreed they might, but that “that’s a different situation.” (He couldn’t tell me just how different.)

A further problem in controlling immigrant crime is the “out-of-sight, out-of-mind” phenomenon: To most Americans, the foreign population barely registers, let alone the criminals among them. An important reason for this, Ward notes, is that immigrants usually victimize their own people. Hispanic crooks, for instance, “see their people as walking ATM machines” owing to their avoidance of banks and police (this means they’re likely to carry large sums of cash on their persons).

And then, of course, there’s the fear factor: In today’s political climate, Ward acknowledged, truth-telling is easily confused with insensitivity or “hate.” Other difficulties include record-keeping on foreign criminals—or the lack of it. “Each state keeps different kind of statistics, and it’s really a killer to get an accurate picture.”

So how does the United States protect its sovereignty against foreign dangers? Besides the Border Patrol upgrades, Professor Ward suggests, “We should create better economic conditions in the other countries. On the criminal side, we’re never going to be able to close the borders with Mexico very effectively unless we make a very strong commitment to doing that.” (Experts, you need to understand, are in the habit of thinking big.) “Once again, quite frankly, we don’t know who’s coming across the border.” (You said a mouthful, professor!)

Finally, this criminal justice expert suggested how the problem of alien crime could lead to possible encroachments by the federal government. (“Indeed,” he had written in his article, “a paradox of more internationalization may well be a lessening of individual rights and the autonomy of local governments.”)

Now, he told me, “We are going to see more emphasis by the federal government stepping in on this [crime problem]. You’ve already got the drug czar .... Perhaps mass fingerprinting is next.” (Not fingerprinting for immigrants only, but for the American public as a whole.) As for the states and their police forces, we may expect to see them “federalized” in years to come. (So much to look forward to.)

So there you have it: the safety of the commonweal - and even basic national security - all but trumped by the government’s fears of identity politics and the escalating power of social activists.

Not to mention the timidity of the “experts” who advise and direct our elected public officials, in Congress and elsewhere.
 
#20 ·
I too owned guns when I was still only here on a Green Card, having that status means you are fully legal, have been vetted extensively by the FBI and native country equivalent and have had psychological and physical evaluations.
They don't just give them away, they cost lots of time, lots of effort and lots of money.
Then when you're here legally and can start the process to become a citizen. More time, effort and cash.
The end result is worth it, which is why we all do it, but in the interim we are paying taxes and have dossiers on us that would shock most natural born folk, mine was 3 inches thick and I've never so much as had a speeding ticket.
Anyway, when you become a citizen you can vote, and you don't get extradited if you commit a felony. Other than that not a lot changes.

You certainly don't suddenly become trustworthy with a gun, that is either already there - or it wasn't, and in that case you wouldn't have got a Green Card anyway.

I think the Governor has done this to instigate creeping incrementalism, all he has to do now is declare everyone in VA 'a danger to themselves' and he will have banned all guns.
 
#21 ·
Database

So imagine that they make a mentally ill database, just like the sex offenders... People that need help go WAYYY off the deep end as their neighbors become afraid of them, employers illegally (?) discriminate them and so on.....BUT ill leave this up for grabs They could be approached by people who care and recieve the help they were afriad to ask for...even if its just friendships and hugs...

SO yeah!!! theres 2 sides to everything in the universe....
 
#23 ·
Well, here's ONE of my concerns (from a message I sent to VCDL prez last night):
Yeah...Too late for #2 it appears:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070430/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech;_ylt=Aqh4WoxI0o7c.2QGBZMKWscDW7oF

Although, the really disturbing one is this statement(from the same link):
"But it would not prevent Cho from acquiring guns by several other means that require no background check in Virginia, including buy-and-trade publications, individual transactions among gun collectors or hobbyists , and gun shows — vast firearms bazaars where scores of people sell or swap firearms.
Legislation that would also subject firearms sales at gun shows to instant background checks is introduced annually in Virginia, and just as often it dies without reaching a floor vote in the General Assembly.

Kaine, a Democrat, has said that he expects new support for the legislation this year and that he would support it, as he has in the past."

Looks to me like he's going to try to get private sale effectively killed. Him openly stating it is only going to give the nutjobs more momentum to try to get it up for a vote.
And this is the VA-Alert from VCDL I recieved this morning(I copied the article in it's entirity. If any VCDL execs find this inappropriate let me know and I'll edit it out myself - or just ask the mods :icon_neutral: ):
----------------------------------------------------------------------
VCDL's Gun Dealer Legal Defense Fund -- help fight Mayor Bloomberg's
scheme to cripple Virginia firearms dealers. See: www.vcdl.org/index.html#DefenseFund
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe or change your email address, please follow the
directions at the end of this message.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Earlier today, Governor Kaine signed an Executive Order (EO)
prohibiting another category of people from owning firearms. Kaine's
EO would take away gun rights for life of any person adjudicated
dangerous, but only ordered to be treated as an OUTPATIENT. (Anyone
who is committed as an inpatient currently loses their gun rights
already.)

So, what's the problem?

1. Kaine's action is probably unconstitutional! If Kaine can just
issue an Imperial Decree changing existing law without any debate
from our elected representatives, why not just disband the General
Assembly, if they aren't needed any more? :-(

The proper way to handle a situation like this is for the Governor to
call a special session of the General Assembly to address this issue
and ask the the General Assembly to modify the law.

2. His EO may appear to be a reasonable restriction because no one
wants a violent, insane person to have a gun or any other weapon for
that matter.

However, what judge in HIS right mind would allow a person who the
judge KNOWS to be a danger to himself or to others to be sent home
and allowed to do outpatient treatment?!? The judge should commit
himself to inpatient treatment for doing such a thing! That's like
sending serial murderer Jeffrey Dahmer back home but requiring him to
attend weekly counseling sessions!

If a person is adjudicated dangerous to himself or others, he should
be confined, NOT sent home!

So you might ask, why would there be ANY patients who were both
dangerous AND ordered to do outpatient treatments?

Because the judge might believe that the person isn't really
'dangerous,' but the judge feels that the person does desperately
need mental help and that the person wouldn't seek such help on his
own. So the judge declares the person to be 'dangerous' so that the
person can be forced to take the outpatient treatment.

Should a person who is not believed to be dangerous by a judge be
banned from having guns for the rest of his life?

3. The Governor's edict is retroactive! Thus, if you were treated as
an outpatient under a court order thirty years ago and have been fine
ever since, you can now no longer BUY, OWN, or POSSESS any firearms.
If you do you can be charged with a federal FELONY!

4. The Governor has falsely promised that gun rights could be
restored. NOT true. There is no way to get your name off the
federal list once Virginia has added you to it, even if you are now
perfectly normal. You will be prohibited by federal law from buying
or possessing a firearm for the rest of your life. And you may not
even realize you are a 'prohibited' person, so when you attempt to
purchase a firearm, you may be shocked when you are arrested for
lying on the 4473, which is a FELONY.

5. Once you are on the federal mental defect list, you could lose
more than your gun rights. Your security clearance could be at risk.
Your job too.

6. According to the Washington Post, Attorney General McDonnell said,
"We are still in a state of mourning, but now is the time for
action." What he's really saying is that he's got to do something,
anything, to make it look like the government is doing something.
Just another "feel good" measure - and one embraced by Governor Kaine!

And talk about rushing to do something - Kaine JUST APPOINTED a
commission to look at the mental health problem and make suggestions,
but Kaine didn't even wait for the commission to meet! He just
charged forward on his political hobbyhorse!

So how did we get into this situation?

Simple - the Court system failed us by not committing the VT murderer
to involuntary treatment. As if that wasn't bad enough, the Governor
comes along with a knee-jerk solution and compounds the problem by
throwing out a huge net to catch such a very rare person. That huge
net brings in all kinds of unintended consequences. And it still
won't guarantee more government failures that could lead to more
murders and mayhem down the road.

Lest you think I am exaggerating the negative impact that the
Governor's actions will have on those who need help, want help, and
are willing to seek help, I will share with you an email I just
received from one of our brave Armed Forces members.

I have left off the person's name for obvious reasons:

"I came back [from my tour of duty] last fall. I'm very worried that
getting advice, counseling, or treatment could have ramifications on
my ability to carry, own, and use firearms. I've been diagnosed with
"mild PTSD" [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder] and am very anxious that
treatment it is going to put me on some list. I believe I can handle
the PTSD, if necessary, but it'd be a whole lot easier if there
weren't that Sword of Damocles hanging over my head.

As it is, I'm treating myself based on information from public sources."

I'll be honest - that email tore me up. Just watching the news and
seeing what those men and women go through in protecting this county
is enough to give ME mild PTSD! I can't even imagine being at war
and living through all that our fighting men and women live through.
Yet we put them in a position of being afraid to seek a helping hand
in adjusting back to normal, peacetime life!

Is this what those who are suffering from emotional stress and
trauma, or have common things like depression, get to look forward
to? The additional worry of becoming a second-class citizen,
disarmed by their own government for seeking help?

And what about employment? Those in a position to lose their guns
unfairly will now also be in a position to lose their security
clearances unfairly, too.

For now, VCDL needs to investigate the whole situation and its
implications in more detail. I have been talking to the Attorney
General's Office, as well as to the aides of House Majority Leader
Morgan Griffith and Delegate John Welch.

Things like a temporary injunction come to mind, so that the law can
be changed carefully and not in a knee jerk reaction. Letting the
General Assembly change the law, if it needs changing at all, in a
constitutional way is a necessity, too. ;-)

This alert for now is just a 'heads up.' The implications of what is
happening could have grave consequences for a lot of innocent people
and we are going to be monitoring the situation carefully.

***************************************************************************
VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL).
VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to
defending the human rights of all Virginians. The membership considers the
Right to Keep and Bear Arms to be an essential human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org
***************************************************************************
IMPORTANT: It is our intention to honor all "remove" requests promptly.
To unsubscribe from this list, or change the email address where you
receive
messages, please go to:
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#24 ·
By executive order, hm? One person, without debate and ratification by the elected representatives of the people?
 
#25 ·
There is no doubt in my mind he does not have the authority to issue an executive order to cover this. And it smacks of an ill thought out knee jerk reaction... is he up for re-election or something?

This loophole will need to be very carefully closed and methods put in place to assure that the person denied his/her rights is protected. As far as I know there is no way to restore those rights as there is no method to remove things from NCIS data base.

I certainly do not want "REAL" crazy people to be able to purchase firearms but I want to make double dam sure they ARE crazy first.
 
#26 ·
Oh and another question...What about all those folks at places like VT where they have school hired counselors and/or shrinks that are encouraging the students to seek help in the aftermath of that disaster...What happens to those folks or can we say standards creep...?
 
#27 ·
Well the key here is "Adjudicated". Which is what line F asks. A judge has to order it. But... what gets me about this Cao case is that a Judge did order evaluation and did, to some extent "adjudicate" that. He ordered it. But he made the determination it was because he was a danger to himself and others but yet he ordered it to be "outpatient" from what I understand. Now... how can someone that is ordered to be evaluated because he is a danger to himself and others NOT BE confined?
 
#30 ·
The judge only deemed him to be a danger to himself, not to others. He ordered him to be evaluated, and based on that evaluation outpatient treatment was recommended. In hindsight, it's quite obvious that he was a danger to others, but, apparently no one that evaluated him at the time came to this conclusion.
 
#28 ·
I'm bothered by the reliance on the state to keep an accurate database which can not be altered. If you share a name with someone else (which is pretty common in VA among older southern familes) or someone in a cubicle somewhere enters a typo you have no legal recourse. It reminds me of the no-fly list.
 
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