Avg. Gunfight - How Many Shots Fired?

This is a discussion on Avg. Gunfight - How Many Shots Fired? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; LOL ofclan that is why i try to preface opinions with what works for me , or imho , or whateaver , then i have ...

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Thread: Avg. Gunfight - How Many Shots Fired?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    LOL ofclan that is why i try to preface opinions with what works for me , or imho , or whateaver , then i have grounds and its not an all around statement . Hey if you like your 19 and carry it , then carry on , its one i wont . That does not make it a bad pistol , just bad for me .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

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  3. #32
    Member Array austinguy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biloxi Bersa View Post
    Depends.

    If NYPD or NOPD, probably 40-50 per shooter.

    It's just a joke......
    LOL

  4. #33
    Member Array austinguy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfClanMcnab View Post
    I love having 16 rounds in my gun. Reloads are good, but that is just one more detail for Murphy to screw you up.

    Anyway, bottom line is BRING A GUN.
    I have a Glock 19 as well and admire the capacity, but I just can't manage to put it on my person anywhere without revamping my wardrobe (baggier pants/shorts), wearing a jacket, etc. I want to be able to throw something in my pocket and head out the door.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink Actually....

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Yankee View Post
    In fact, I would bet most of us decide what to carry based on a balancing of what is comfortable, what is most effective in a handgun (which really is an oxymoron), what we can shoot best, and what we think is most intimidating.
    I decide what I'm going to carry based on two factors if I'm not on an extended trip:

    #1 Weather: If it's summertime here in South Florida and I'm staying in town...if I'm pretty sure I'm going to stay out of my towns version of "Indian Country" then I'm carrying my S&W M642 in a Mikla pocket holster with a speedloader in the offside. No matter what, I always carry at least one reload!

    #2 Situation: What is my agenda for the day? Where am I likely to find myself? Am I shopping with the wife? If so, are we shopping for me? Will I need to be trying on clothing, etc? It's a factor. OTOH, say we're going to the Florida Keys for the day. That means I'll be passing thru the edge of "Indian Country" and of course the Keys themselves can be very dangerous and I don't even drink or hang out in bars! So I'm likely to carry a 45 Sig P245 and at least one sp P220 mag. The Sig will be carried IWB (Blade Tech) under a "tucked in" t-shirt with a lightweight loud print Hawaiian shirt as cover.

    If I'm on an extended trip out of state or into the northern part of the state, it's a different story. And a different inventory.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #35
    Member Array OfClanMcnab's Avatar
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    Good point, exSoldier. You can probably get away with something smaller or low-capacity in certain areas and situations.

    I know one thing: I'm always carrying my hi-cap Glock 19 when going into high-population areas like malls. Two or three years ago I would have rated the mall as the 'least-likely area to need a gun', but now they seem to be nut-magnets. You are more likely to need an extra magazine when carrying in a mall or similar area, because you are much more likely to get into an extended gunfight there. Just imagine if you or I had been in that Utah mall a few months ago.

    Crazy world.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink Please Don't Think Me A MALL NINJA....But....

    Quote Originally Posted by OfClanMcnab View Post
    I know one thing: I'm always carrying my hi-cap Glock 19 when going into high-population areas like malls. Two or three years ago I would have rated the mall as the 'least-likely area to need a gun', but now they seem to be nut-magnets. You are more likely to need an extra magazine when carrying in a mall or similar area, because you are much more likely to get into an extended gunfight there. Just imagine if you or I had been in that Utah mall a few months ago.
    I'm much less worried about the lone gunman in the mall than I am somebody with "Sudden Jihadi Syndrome" or worse a dedicated attack by a terrorist cell. When I go to one of the BIG malls in this area (not the smaller outlet malls where I shop for me) I carry like I'm going to run into OBL himself. Something very accurate at my personal max range and at least one sp mag. Lemme tell you. That's going to happen someday and maybe someday soon. And there may very well be a lone sheepdog like one of us on site.

    In such a situation I would NOT want to be carrying that M642 in my pocket.

    Shots will have to be extremely well placed to avoid hitting sheeple.

    You want a great example of what this might look like, read the book by Tom Clancy called THE TEETH OF THE TIGER.
    WOW.

    Am I off base here?
    Last edited by ExSoldier; May 4th, 2007 at 06:27 AM.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #37
    Member Array austinguy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Am I off base here? Somebody new to the forum recently called me a MALL NINJA. I hope that's not the impression I give.
    Mall ninja...lol...that's funny

  9. #38
    pax
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    ExSoldier ~

    Probably not too far off-base, but, um ... trying to bolster your case for not being a mall ninja probably wasn't helped by citing fiction by Tom Clancy!

    pax
    Kathy Jackson
    My website: Cornered Cat

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Am I off base here?
    Absolutely. Mall-ninja manic. We have no need for such barbarian thinking. This isn't downtown Baghdad, afterall. People don't want to harm us, they just misunderstand us.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    While obviously the parties involved were a bit different than the group here, this is not abnormal for a home-invasion style assault (at least according to what I still hear from Harris Co., TX). Instead of being the responding officer, it would be one of us. When the gun comes out, the difference is irrelevant. Copied from another site:

    http://www.parade.com/articles/editi...005/featured_0
    This is a little off topic, but ref. this story- there was 4 deputies on scene... where were they during the gun fight in the garage? It says Martin followed her into the garage, what was he doing? I'd be highly PO'd if I were in a gun fight and had three other deputies who did not come in and help. I also would be PO'd if I was one of the other deputies and did get into the mix but was mentioned because I managed to not get myself shot up.
    I am happy that the parents served time, not really for the drug stuff but for putting their kids in that situation in the first place.

    As for the number of shots fired... I think the magic number is 1-3. The real deal is to know your limitations and work with that. If you know you only have five shots, dont go and engage an entire gang. Remember it only has to defend yourself, and allow your escape. Your purpose is not to defend the free world.
    Last edited by SIXTO; May 4th, 2007 at 11:54 AM.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  12. #41
    Member Array airbornerangerboogie's Avatar
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    The only thing I can fall back on is my combat experience, not much of a gage for single attacker. We always continued to pump projectiles down range until the problem went away...., but I'd probably continue to use that same methodology in this case.
    “Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.” James Dean
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  13. #42
    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    Capacity is good, but planning and practice are also...

    Several posters have made the point that “average shots fired” in police gunfights may not be relevant to civilian CCW encounters, because the motivations of the bad guy may be different in the two cases. I would agree with this, as a bad guy using a gun on armed police is obviously pretty desperate and willing to risk death or a murder conviction to avoid capture. In the civilian case, the bad guy is probably surprised when his victim pulls a gun, and would likely try to escape rather than take on a hard target that he thought was a soft target. So civilians may get by with fewer shots fired on average, compared to police.

    Although I don’t have hard data on this, I suspect that in 90% of the cases where the civilian uses a handgun for defense, he won’t need more than the six rounds in a typical revolver or the 8 or so rounds in a typical single stack semiauto, provided that he is a capable shooter with a major caliber gun who can function under pressure. So maybe the things you do before the event are the most important, such as picking a gun you can shoot well and practicing on a regular basis, as well as mentally visualizing what you will do if the need arises.

  14. #43
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    I wrote this reply on another forum a while back, and can't remember the exact source of the information (it was a gun advocacy group of some sort like GOA or the NRA), so I can't speak with authority. However, their stats showed that over a 5 year period from 2000-2005, the average number of shots fired by NON LEO's in cases that didn't involve mass shootings - like VT shooting last month, the court house shooting in Tyler, TX or Columbine - was three for the entire event. It also said the average distance was between seven and ten feet. The source also said that almost 70% involved people who knew one another (relatives, friends, co-workers, etc) and that less than 10% resulted in a fatality.

    Remember, this was a study of non LEO shootings. From several of the other studies that use LEO related stats, it seems the numbers go up - often considerably - for number of shots fired and number of fatalities where LEO's are involved. It may have to do with their training, the "heat of the moment", the stress of the job or any number of things the average, non LEO doesn't deal with on a regular basis.

    FWIW, there is a lot to be said both for and against using averages. It's simply the use of probablities. In the case of an "average" of 3 shots, for every case that involved 15 shots fired, there were six cases that only required 2 shots. We, as responsible citizens who carry a weapon, have to decide what the chances are (1) we'll be involved in ANY armed confrontation, (2) decide what are the chances of being in a situation that requires 15 shots vs. 2 rounds. I personally would like to have that 15 rounds available, whether I ever need them or not, though my chances (based on lifestyle, age, location) of needing to use ANY weapon for self-defense are less than getting killed by a passing truck or tornado.

    At the other extreme is the person who carries a pistol holding 17+ rounds, PLUS several reloads. My view is it's a bit of overkill since even LEO's never fire 50 rounds from a handgun. However, to each their own...

    BTW, don't start a flame war over this since I'm NOT calling LEO's trigger happy! I'm not making ANY judgement calls one way or the other, just repeating the information.
    Last edited by rachilders; May 4th, 2007 at 07:29 PM.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  15. #44
    Member Array Velocette's Avatar
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    Thank you Sixto, you have crystallized the argument well. I carry an S&W .38 snubbie or a Kimber Compact Stainless .45, each with at least one reload depending upon the area or perceived threat. All I need to do is survive the incident and stop the attack, whatever it may be.

    "The real deal is to know your limitations and work with that. If you know you only have five shots, don't go and engage an entire gang. Remember it only has to defend yourself, and allow your escape. Your purpose is not to defend the free world."

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