Texas Carry

This is a discussion on Texas Carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As Texas Peace Officer and a civilian concealed handgun instructor since the program was started, my advice is to not go in ANY place that ...

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  1. #16
    TPO
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    As Texas Peace Officer and a civilian concealed handgun instructor since the program was started, my advice is to not go in ANY place that shows any kind of sign that indicates guns are not welcome. there is a saying that goes something like.."you might beat the charge but you will never beat the ride". Be VERY careful when splitting legal hairs unless you got lots of money and or are an attorney. 30.06 can very easily be used to crush your "you know whats" until you whimper and cry. There, as of yet, has not been a CLEAR STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL's opinion or court ruling. IMHO it seems like Texas state law is written vaguely to keep defense attorneys employeed------just joking boys; but hopefully ya'll can catch my drift.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPO View Post
    As Texas Peace Officer and a civilian concealed handgun instructor since the program was started, my advice is to not go in ANY place that shows any kind of sign that indicates guns are not welcome. there is a saying that goes something like.."you might beat the charge but you will never beat the ride". Be VERY careful when splitting legal hairs unless you got lots of money and or are an attorney. 30.06 can very easily be used to crush your "you know whats" until you whimper and cry. There, as of yet, has not been a CLEAR STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL's opinion or court ruling. IMHO it seems like Texas state law is written vaguely to keep defense attorneys employeed------just joking boys; but hopefully ya'll can catch my drift.
    That's not very good advice either, and surprising from someone that's supposedly an instructor. If it's NOT a valid 30.06 sign, it simply DOES NOT APPLY. If someone paints with a big paintbrush, "No guns allowed in this here place!", it doesn't apply. The law, as written, is quite clear.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  4. #18
    TPO
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    rodc13, you may do as you wish. It is only advice. There a two county attorneys in my family, 3 county deputies and one criminal defense attorney. The county attorneys were both cops before going to law school and becoming lawyers. They all agree with my advice, as do the folks at the CHL instructors school. The law is not clearly written unless one likes to split hairs with attorneys and or has a pile of money to feed attorneys.....it is just advice and you may act in any manner you wish. I will be renewing my instructors rating in August this year and I will ask Sgt Ridely (the head/lead DPS instructor) if my advice is off line. Go in peace my friend and may the Lord watch over us all.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPO View Post
    rodc13, you may do as you wish. It is only advice. There a two county attorneys in my family, 3 county deputies and one criminal defense attorney. The county attorneys were both cops before going to law school and becoming lawyers. They all agree with my advice, as do the folks at the CHL instructors school. The law is not clearly written unless one likes to split hairs with attorneys and or has a pile of money to feed attorneys.....it is just advice and you may act in any manner you wish. I will be renewing my instructors rating in August this year and I will ask Sgt Ridely (the head/lead DPS instructor) if my advice is off line. Go in peace my friend and may the Lord watch over us all.
    Sorry, but that's just not credible. Silly, even. Maybe it's a CYA position, but it's not the law, which is quite clear.

    Just to be certain, let me make sure I understand you. You're suggesting that, contrary to state law, you should not enter any business, anywhere, if it has any kind of a sign suggesting that guns are not welcome, even it it's just one of these:


    Is that really what you and everyone else you mentioned are saying?
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  6. #20
    TPO
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    I believe the second amendment is written very clearly; but my interpetation is not the same as many people in the federal goverment...whose right? If you go into a business with the red slash thru the gun type sign and someone tells you to leave and you do not then it is treaspass....if you argue with them the LE they may also add disorderly conduct and the list goes on depending on the folks involved. It can turn into a urinating contest. Why would you want to be someplace that you are not wanted giving that business your precious time and money? Advice is not law. Do as you wish. I stand by my position that the CHL laws are not clearly, for all circumstances, written. I gave the second amendment example as something that I see crystal clear but others do not....
    Why expose oneself to potential trouble when the sign says the owners feelings about guns (even if it is not correct)? It is advice only. I did not mean to rile you. I have had this disscussion many times with many people with lots of undesrible outcomes for their adherence to the law as they saw it. The law is only an approximation of justice. It is created, administrated and interpeted by humans and humans damn sure aint perfect.
    I teach the law( per state chl requirements) but I also give advice where experience has shown me it is needed. I do not want any of my students coming back and saying "why didn't you tell me that could happen". I am not offended if you do not agree with me or think that my opinion is not credible.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPO View Post
    I believe the second amendment is written very clearly; but my interpetation is not the same as many people in the federal goverment...whose right? If you go into a business with the red slash thru the gun type sign and someone tells you to leave and you do not then it is treaspass....if you argue with them the LE they may also add disorderly conduct and the list goes on depending on the folks involved. It can turn into a urinating contest. Why would you want to be someplace that you are not wanted giving that business your precious time and money? Advice is not law. Do as you wish. I stand by my position that the CHL laws are not clearly, for all circumstances, written. I gave the second amendment example as something that I see crystal clear but others do not....
    Why expose oneself to potential trouble when the sign says the owners feelings about guns (even if it is not correct)? It is advice only. I did not mean to rile you. I have had this disscussion many times with many people with lots of undesrible outcomes for their adherence to the law as they saw it. The law is only an approximation of justice. It is created, administrated and interpeted by humans and humans damn sure aint perfect.
    I teach the law( per state chl requirements) but I also give advice where experience has shown me it is needed. I do not want any of my students coming back and saying "why didn't you tell me that could happen". I am not offended if you do not agree with me or think that my opinion is not credible.
    If someone asks you to leave their property and you don't, you're going to have legal difficulty regardless of whether or not you're carrying a weapon. But, as you know, that's hardly the issue here. If you leave when asked, you haven't violated a statute, nor have you even shown disrespect. Not to mention that if your weapon is concealed, as required by law under any circumstances, the question will never even come up.

    A business owner who wants to prevent legal concealed carry on their premises has a very clear and simple option. Post a valid 30.06 sign. The law isn't ambiguous at all, nor does it fail to spell out, in detail, exactly what the requirement is. Please explain just what it is that's unclear to you.

    Beyond that, a business owner with an invalid sign may or may not be intending it for legal license holders. If you avoid all businesses that have any type of gun sign, you're doing yourself and them a disservice. If you feel that it's necessary to disarm before going past a ghostbusters sign, then that IS just plain silly. C'mon!

    Again, I understand why you'd take the CYA approach in advising someone, especially with all those lawyers in the family. But I'm also relieved to hear that you do in fact teach the actual law, and not just the CYA advice. I just hope you're following the real law when it comes to enforcing it, and not following your own suggestion that
    Quote Originally Posted by TPO View Post
    "30.06 can very easily be used to crush your "you know whats" until you whimper and cry.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPO View Post
    I believe the second amendment is written very clearly; but my interpetation is not the same as many people in the federal goverment...whose right? If you go into a business with the red slash thru the gun type sign and someone tells you to leave and you do not then it is treaspass....if you argue with them the LE they may also add disorderly conduct and the list goes on depending on the folks involved. It can turn into a urinating contest. Why would you want to be someplace that you are not wanted giving that business your precious time and money? Advice is not law. Do as you wish. I stand by my position that the CHL laws are not clearly, for all circumstances, written. I gave the second amendment example as something that I see crystal clear but others do not....
    Why expose oneself to potential trouble when the sign says the owners feelings about guns (even if it is not correct)? It is advice only. I did not mean to rile you. I have had this disscussion many times with many people with lots of undesrible outcomes for their adherence to the law as they saw it. The law is only an approximation of justice. It is created, administrated and interpeted by humans and humans damn sure aint perfect.
    I teach the law( per state chl requirements) but I also give advice where experience has shown me it is needed. I do not want any of my students coming back and saying "why didn't you tell me that could happen". I am not offended if you do not agree with me or think that my opinion is not credible.
    If you enter a business, with a gun buster sign and someone with apparent authority tells you to leave because you have a concealed handgun, you must leave. I don't know anyone who will argue against that point. If you don't your breaking the law, regardless of what ******* contest you get in. if you leave when asked there is no legal action that person can take.

    ) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
    if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
    act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

    However, this section of the law is clear as to what written communication is, You should know that if your a LEO or a CHL instructor.

    (3) "Written communication" means:
    (A) a card or other document on which is written
    language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
    Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
    handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
    Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
    property with a concealed handgun"; or
    (B) a sign posted on the property that:
    (i) includes the language described by
    Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
    (ii) appears in contrasting colors with
    block letters at least one inch in height; and
    (iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
    clearly visible to the public.

    I just don't see how someone with your stated background can take the possition you are and expect anyone to listen to you. The law is very clear what is a valid sign on this particular point, and gun buster signs do not fit that wording.

    As for the other bad advise given on this thread. Some might want to argue what contrasting colors are, but I surely am not going to pursue a fight against a hospital that puts a sign on tinted glass door what meets all the other criteria of the 30.06 language, simply because you think it doesn't contrast enough, that is just plain foolish.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
    www.ddchl.com
    Texas CHL Instructor
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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    I personally disregard Gun Buster Signs, if it is a legal sized and worded 30.06 then I follow the law but even at Taco Cabana that has the wording of the 30.06 sign on a 8 1/2 X 11 piece of paper on one of the doors and not the other I carry.

    the law is pretty clear you can not carry in a courthouse, you can not carry in a school (you can in a school parking lot), you can not carry in a polling place, you can not carry in an permanently fixed open all year around amusement park of certain sizes (basically 6 flags and sea world), you can not carry at a sporting event, you can not carry at a corrections facility.

    You can read it right out of the law at http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/for...16.pdf#page=62
    Last edited by Timmy Jimmy; May 9th, 2007 at 06:26 PM.
    Timmy Jimmy

    If it is not in the US Constitution then the Federal Government should not be doing it.

    "Carrying a gun is a social responsibility."

  10. #24
    los
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    If the business is not 30.06 compliant,....they ARE NOT 30.06 compliant! THAT"S THE LAW IN TEXAS!

    ALSO, Open Carry, even when in public view, is permitted only when you are within the confines of your Property.

    You can open carry while you work on the yard, wash the car on your driveway (not on the street), paint the House, etc, etc,...as long as the weapon remains holstered.

    You can sit outside on your Porch and read the newspaper or drink a nice cold glass of Tea, while you have your loaded Winchester 30-30 resting on your lap,...as long as you don't point the rifle towards people or their dwelling/property.

    But once the weapon is brandished and/or waved or pointed towards people or their dwellings/property,... You'll most likely get a quick visit from LEOs.
    What we've got here is failure to communicate.

  11. #25
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    A number of posters have said that open carry is not allowed. In your situation assuming you are only taking a handgun, that is absolutely right. However open carry of rifles and shotguns is legal in Texas and in some parts of the state regularly done, at least in rifle racks in pickups. I wouldn't suggest doing it in DFW, Houston, San Antonio or Austin however. You won't go to jail, but you may get a ride!

  12. #26
    TPO
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    I am not communicating well...so I will try again. I never said or implied that I would use chl laws/30.06 crush someone. If I came across that way it was not my intent. Some LE's will crush folks with the law. My intent was advice only concerning any sign that expresses anti gun sentiment concerning ccw. All trespass violations are enhanced with chl. I was and still am trying to state that some view the law differently and consquently the results get settled in other venues than polite discourse. You could get a free ride and new experience and spend LOTS of money proving you were right; when exhibiting a little discretion might have been appropriate. As one post said contrasting colors could be debated. Ya'll do as you wish. I am merely expousing CYA actions/advice for those who wish to listen. I teach the law and give advice and tell experiences of how I have seen it enforced. 30.06 is relatively clear in and of itself standing alone; but when combined with all the other laws and factors that can and do sometimes prevail different interpetations occur that are usually settled by the courts with liberal applications of money for lawyers. Lawyers and courts are EXPENSIVE. I love Texas and will live no place else; but Texas is one of the most litigous states in the union. It is not number one but last I read it was in the top five. Hopefully my further thoughts have helped clarify what I was trying to say....if not then lets us respectfully agree to disagree.

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    I don't know about anyone else here, but I'll err on the side of safety and keep my concealed weapon with me.

    That being said, the term CONCEALED is the operative word here. If a gun is properly concealed, nobody but you should know you're carrying. However, any property owner or someone else in authority on ANY private property (that includes a business) can post ANY kind of sign saying weapons aren't allowed. They may not be binding in the sense the state requires very exact wording, coloring, etc of a sign to be "legal" (30.06), but if you're made and asked to leave or remove your weapon from the location and you refuse, the owner CAN have you arrested for treaspassing. If you should ever get made while carrying in a "NO GUNS ALLOWED" location and are asked to leave or remove your weapon from that location, I'd suggest you do one or the other and don't get into a dispute over whether it's "legal" or not to carry.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPO View Post
    I am not communicating well...so I will try again. I never said or implied that I would use chl laws/30.06 crush someone. If I came across that way it was not my intent. Some LE's will crush folks with the law.
    If you have examples of where LEOs are "crushing" law-abiding citizens with the law, then you should report them to the appropriate state agency. I trust it's not your department.

    Quote Originally Posted by TPO View Post
    My intent was advice only concerning any sign that expresses anti gun sentiment concerning ccw. All trespass violations are enhanced with chl. I was and still am trying to state that some view the law differently and consequently the results get settled in other venues than polite discourse. You could get a free ride and new experience and spend LOTS of money proving you were right; when exhibiting a little discretion might have been appropriate. As one post said contrasting colors could be debated.
    When you're instructing LEOs, do you teach them the actual meaning of 30.06, or that it applies to any no-gun sign? I hope you're doing your part to get rid of the erroneous interpretations.

    Do you have any examples of such cases? Where someone actually got in an argument with a property owner over contrasting colors on the 30.06 sign? Again, if a person refuses to leave private property when requested, they're violating the law. If they're not concealed, they're violating the law.


    Quote Originally Posted by TPO View Post
    Ya'll do as you wish. I am merely expousing CYA actions/advice for those who wish to listen. I teach the law and give advice and tell experiences of how I have seen it enforced. 30.06 is relatively clear in and of itself standing alone; but when combined with all the other laws and factors that can and do sometimes prevail different interpetations occur that are usually settled by the courts with liberal applications of money for lawyers. Lawyers and courts are EXPENSIVE. I love Texas and will live no place else; but Texas is one of the most litigous states in the union. It is not number one but last I read it was in the top five. Hopefully my further thoughts have helped clarify what I was trying to say....if not then lets us respectfully agree to disagree.
    I hope that you'll give some real thought to how you deliver this message in your classes, especially to those for LEOs. They should leave your class knowing what the real law is, and not burdened with a bunch of misconceptions and misinterpretations. They certainly should never leave not knowing what a valid 30.06 sign is. They should NOT be using misinterpretations to "crush" citizens exercising their rights under the Constitution and Texas Law.

    Your non-LEO students should also know the actual law. The purpose of carrying a concealed handgun is for protection. Teaching that they should be disarmed when it's not required just puts them at risk. However, they should have it impressed upon them that a concealed handgun license doesn't grant license to be disrespectful to property owners and that concealed means concealed.

    I think you'll find that practically everyone on this forum is willing to listen to accurate information and sound advice. People here tend to have very open minds and consider a great many points of view. That's one of the things that makes Combat Carry the finest forum of its type (in my humble opinion). Along with that, however, goes the corollary that you'll find some of the best-informed folks around, as well. If the info isn't accurate and the advice isn't sound, then it doesn't get a free pass. But compared to other forums, it's pretty gentle correction, and really is intended to be constructive.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  15. #29
    TPO
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    I do not consider what you say to be a correction. Crushing, as an example means ticketing a person for 31mph in 30mph and making them wait while a check of every conceivable data base is run on them. I have crawfished for you as much as I am going to about interpetation of the law.....just what makes you so clever, educated, smart and experienced? Are you an instructor, LE, lawyer or judge? or just someone running off at the key board without anything but a smigedon of experience? I am done with this verbal sparring. We agree to disagree. Take the advice or leave it. I have verified it with experienced professionals what are your sources? I am elected to my office so obvisouly the majority of people where I live believe in what I do and say concerning applications of my office. I will run for my third term in Nov. this year. I have put lots of BG's away and logged much court time......never been sued on the civil side....hope never to be. That's a big achievement with as many years total law enforcement as I have. Most LE are sued sooner or later by a BG or citizen for almost anything nowadays....but I sincerely doubt you are aware of it.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    See what happens when them Damn Yankees come to Texas they stir up stink!

    (I know Virginia was not a yankee state during the real war, but it is real close to being a yankee state now)

    Now you two good ol boys just get over it, get er done!
    Timmy Jimmy

    If it is not in the US Constitution then the Federal Government should not be doing it.

    "Carrying a gun is a social responsibility."

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