Principle Advocates Teachers Should Be Armed - Page 2

Principle Advocates Teachers Should Be Armed

This is a discussion on Principle Advocates Teachers Should Be Armed within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Euc, these have been some of your best posts ever that I have had the chance to read. I got a sense from your first ...

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Thread: Principle Advocates Teachers Should Be Armed

  1. #16
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    Euc, these have been some of your best posts ever that I have had the chance to read. I got a sense from your first post what it is like to be a professor to which I say thank you. I know that I would not have the patience to carry out your mission/occupation. I take my hat off to you sir for yours is a very difficult often underrated position in our society that routinely goes without a "thank you."

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  2. #17
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    Very deep and often contentious subject this.

    But what a great thread - much excellent input and Euc, - you Sir make a most erudite presentation. Thank you.
    Chris - P95
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Aw Shucks.

    Now I'm gonna get all mushy... someone call in The Tourist to say something funny...

  4. #19
    Member Array Deke45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    Well I don't tolerate such things as I've mentioned and they don't happen every day, but they do happen. The fact that the punishment is swift and severe does not prevent it from happening.

    The last student who pulled a stunt like that (he did a backflip and then rolled around on the floor after being told not to), well that was the last nail in the coffin as far as my principal was concerned. He suspended him immediately for the remainder of the day and the next day. The student was sent to the Academy, and has subsequently dropped out. He had it coming too, and I tried to warn him so many times.

    I've never once felt smug when I do turn out to be right about things like this. Rather, I feel just the opposite. That young man's life is now officially a complete wreck because of his decision to pull that stunt and the subsequent decision he made to drop out. I can't help but wonder, could I have prevented it somehow?

    And I think, and I stay up late at night unable to sleep like I do tonight, and I realize ultimately no, I could not have prevented these events. Even if I'd somehow kept him from doing that in my presence he'd have just done it somewhere else. He wanted to do it and no one can force him not to. He chose his drug centered life.

    I can dole out swift and terrible justice but inevitably someone else will pull a stunt like that again.
    Seems like an awful harsh attitude for the crime of doing something so simple as a "backflip in your presence!" You know, all kids have a need to fit in, and some do it by being jocks, some by scholastic achievements, and others by being the class clown, the showoff, or the jokester. It doesn't make them bad kids deserving of "swift and terrible justice."

    I know, I was one of the latter when I was a kid! I'm sure I pushed many a teachers buttons in my day. But there was also a teacher who saw through the facade, and had the patience and wisdom to reach out and work with me...to help me down the path. I don't imagine you ever had any of these troubles when you were in school.

    You say his life is a complete wreck now and wonder if you could have prevented it? Well, maybe not...but maybe you could lighten up on the "small sh*t" and show a little more tolerance instead of swinging away with the mighty sword of vengence!

    Opinions are like as*holes....this is just mine!

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  5. #20
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    Perhaps we should heed Judy Shaubach's advice.

    After all, she knows her teachers better than we do and obviously believes that the students would be in greater danger from teachers with guns than from killers with guns.
    There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
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  6. #21
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    Realize Deke that same student has been in constant trouble all year for drugs, disrupting class, and truancy. His previous offense was bringing an ounce of marijuana to school and attempting to sell it.

    This was just the last straw that broke the camel's back. He had a rap sheet a mile long and this was just it. He'd had his chances. I feel if he hadn't taken the drugs to school he would have just been sent to detention.

    I did however sign the papers to send him to the Academy because that's what he needs is an ex Marine drill sargeant yelling at him. But then he dropped out, so what can I do?

    If it hadn't been me it would have been someone else. I've also called the police on a student this year for possession of a white powdery substance I'm 99.9% sure was not sugar. If the test from the DPS comes back, she'll be arrested. How do you think that makes me feel to know it's my fault if she goes to juvie for it?

    But I have to do these things. I can't just let that one kid defy me openly and not suffer any consequences for it. I knew his track record and I knew that referral would get him in some serious trouble but I had to do it. I can't let that other one spend her life trafficing that stuff. I hope she gets the book thrown at her.

    No I don't sleep very well at night sometimes. I admit that it takes a greater intellect and more wisdom than I possess sometimes to see what might have been a better decision to make.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    Actually I have given this a lot of thought over the last few days.
    With all due respect to our resident educators, After realizing what a bunch of liberal nutjobs most of MY grade-high school teachers turned out to be, I am not sure I would trust many of them to be responsible enough to teach my kid to whistle. There were a few who were mediocre, but really not bad. There were three who were shining examples of what teachers should be and I owe those three a debt of gratitude to this day. Looking back, and from the reports I hear from kids in our church my perceptions were not far off, most of them seemed more interested in pushing their ideas and beliefs on us, and didn't really give a darn what we learned if anything as long as we passed the state tests. My cat could probably be counted on to pass that thing. At any rate, when I graduated high school I could rant on for hours about why Regan was supposed to be a warmongering idiot, but I couldn’t tell you when WWII started, although I knew it had something to do with the Germans, and then us dropping nukes on those poor Japanese. I knew George Washington was the first president, but I knew nothing about the man, they sure as heck didn't expose us to his farewell address. I really had no clue about history, the world, or life in general. I was a 3.4 - 4.0 student in any given year too. Other than a tiny bit of math, biology and wood shop, which could have been taught to me in a single year going half days, I could have stayed home. 7th grade up was nothing but propaganda school. Other than college I consider myself largely self educated.

    In contrast college was a great experience for me. WOW, just think of it, a school that hires intelligent people who know what they are talking about to teach students. Granted there were an inordinately large number of wack jobs there as well. But at least most of them liked their subject and would teach you if you asked good questions and displayed some interest. I learned more math in the first 2 months of college than I have in the previous 6 years combined. That didn't slow down over the coming years either.



    Dont get me wrong, I am all for those who become teachers for the right reasons and are good at it. I take my hat off to them. But with our local school system at least, it seems to reject these fine people for those who will stick to the party line. My wife and I decided that our kids will never set foot inside any of our local public schools. They will either go to private schools (which still seem to value good teachers) or they will be home schooled. I may not have a degree in education, but I and my wife sure couldn't do worse for my kids than was done for me.

    Wow that tunred into a rant didn't it. An off topic one to boot. LOL

    Sorry if I offended anyone that wasn't my intention. Even after all these years, I still harbor some anger (can't tell can you?) at the years of my life the public school system wasted feeding me propaganda wrapped loosely in revisionist "history" and "literature" when I could have learned something useful and actually been better for it.


    Well I was going to make a comment about crazy liberal "educators", and how we should keep them away from easy cheese dispensers much less firearms, lets arm the janitors instead. But I got carried away.
    Last edited by GoodSamaritan; April 8th, 2005 at 07:44 PM. Reason: LOL, I can't type when I get in a hurry

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    I've also called the police on a student this year for possession of a white powdery substance I'm 99.9% sure was not sugar. If the test from the DPS comes back, she'll be arrested. How do you think that makes me feel to know it's my fault if she goes to juvie for it?

    But I have to do these things. I can't just let that one kid defy me openly and not suffer any consequences for it. I knew his track record and I knew that referral would get him in some serious trouble but I had to do it. I can't let that other one spend her life trafficing that stuff. I hope she gets the book thrown at her.

    No I don't sleep very well at night sometimes. I admit that it takes a greater intellect and more wisdom than I possess sometimes to see what might have been a better decision to make.
    Euc, you have done what you have had to do. It isn't your fault about the girl with the white powder, it is hers. If you allow open defiance, in any setting, you will not be effective and that would be unfair to the rest of your students, yourself, and for that matter the one being defiant. It may be a hard lesson for them, and even then they may not learn from it. However that is not your responsibility.
    While this may be an apples and oranges comparison, I work with teens myself, and have gone back to seminary to study for just this purpose. Even so, I have to make tough decisons sometime. I like to compare it to surgery, it's messy, it hurts, nobody likes it, and it sure it isn't easy to decide when and how to act, but it MUST to be done sometimes.

    Your responsibility is to act the best you know how, and that's all anyone can do. That may not make you sleep any better, but at least now the next time you are tossing and turning, you know that you are not alone.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    Ok last post for a while. I am still with the principal, but this is one of the few cases where I would like to see better training and stricter rules about who carrys in our schools. But I would definately like to see those who can and will, have the option to be armed.

  10. #25
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    Lightbulb Lighten Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deke45
    Seems like an awful harsh attitude for the crime of doing something so simple as a "backflip in your presence!" You know, all kids have a need to fit in, and some do it by being jocks, some by scholastic achievements, and others by being the class clown, the showoff, or the jokester. It doesn't make them bad kids deserving of "swift and terrible justice."

    You say his life is a complete wreck now and wonder if you could have prevented it? Well, maybe not...but maybe you could lighten up on the "small sh*t" and show a little more tolerance instead of swinging away with the mighty sword of vengence!

    Opinions are like as*holes....this is just mine!
    First of all DEKE, I'm directly and legally responsible for my students while they are in my charge in a classroom. I have a legal "DUTY OF CARE" and if I allow "something so simple as a backflip" and that student lands wrong and maybe breaks his neck (or breaks anything) who gets both fired AND sued? I have seen it happen.

    I'm a pro and I'm always in control in my classroom. I care for my students but I never get "personally involved" in their problems until it disrupts the learning of others and you better darn well know that in the 'hood...in MY world...the inner city....these kids only have ONE SHOT to make it out. I don't play games with education. It can literally mean life or death to some of these children.

    I also don't feel one iota of worry or grief for the kids I write up, because it's not a casual action for me. I taught at another inner city school for eight years. At that place it was four YEARS before I wrote the first referral for bad conduct in the class. I treat kids exactly like I treated my troops and it works very well.

    Now I know teachers who write referrals (official reports that gets the kid suspended by an administrator) when the wind blows. Those "teachers" lose ALL credibility with the main office fast. But me? The first referral I wrote, they figured it must be so serious that the kid must be some kind of serial killer! They didn't want to take a chance so he was WITHDRAWN that day. Too bad, so sad. Don't mess with ME.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #26
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    Wink Lighten UP? #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Deke45
    I know, I was one of the latter when I was a kid! I'm sure I pushed many a teachers buttons in my day. But maybe you could lighten up on the "small sh*t" and show a little more tolerance instead of swinging away with the mighty sword of vengence!

    Opinions are like as*holes....this is just mine!
    Deke does it ever occur to you as to WHY about 50% of all new teachers QUIT within the first three years? Why don't you come walk a mile or so in OUR shoes before you get judgmental?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Now I know teachers who write referrals (official reports that gets the kid suspended by an administrator) when the wind blows. Those "teachers" lose ALL credibility with the main office fast. But me? The first referral I wrote, they figured it must be so serious that the kid must be some kind of serial killer! They didn't want to take a chance so he was WITHDRAWN that day. Too bad, so sad. Don't mess with ME.
    Exactly. I've written two all year and I teach the remedial bunch with the worst behavior problems. My neighbors have written at least 15 each. Now I'm not inner city thank goodness but I apply the same idea. You have to write very few and make them count.

    I don't give them out lightly either.

    It's a battle of wills and I'm not about to get punked by some 17 year old kid even if I do agonize over the fact he's ruining his life. It's kind of like how my own father used to punish me for screwing up. I'm sure he hated it more than I did but you've got to do something in the heat of the moment.

    95% of education is learning to do what you're expected to do when you're expected to do it where you're expected to do it.

    You have to be a different person for each audience. My first period thinks I'm soft spoken and easy going and my seventh period thinks I am a hard ass jerk. They're both right because for that hour and a half that's exactly what I am. I can be myself on my own time.

  13. #28
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    I couldn't be a teacher. I would be in jail within a week for going medieval on them.
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  14. #29
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    When I started teaching, it was a great job. If I had a problem with a kid, a phone call to the parents would always clear it up. By the time I retired, it had all changed. I wouldn't have considered calling parents because they would just attack me for picking on their precious kid who could do no wrong. Discipline is a thing of the past in most public schools today. The day I retired was one of the happiest days of my life. I'm afraid Goodsamaritan has pretty much nailed it.

  15. #30
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    The problem I run into is that they don't really have parents to speak of in most cases.

    The key to a good education for children is having real parents.

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