Basic marksmanship equal judgement?

Basic marksmanship equal judgement?

This is a discussion on Basic marksmanship equal judgement? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Must say up front my CCW class instructor was top notch. Army vet, retired cop, certified NRA ..he covered the basics as best he could. ...

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Thread: Basic marksmanship equal judgement?

  1. #1
    New Member Array Ed Siquentes's Avatar
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    Basic marksmanship equal judgement?

    Must say up front my CCW class instructor was top notch. Army vet, retired cop, certified NRA ..he covered the basics as best he could.

    BUT,when range time came some were lacking in basic markmanship it seemed ...shots all over targets regardless of guys using semi-autos and revolvers.

    RO came by and expressed his shame in some targets and praised the others.

    As far as I know everybody got their cert though.

    Not my business at the time it seemed to judge, as there are quite a few things that I need to improve on, but felt that I excelled quite a few others on this rudimentary course.


    ..I wonder though how many of "those" guys went on to get their permit.

    Dont want to sound like a snob but should I worry about guys that are carrying in my AO that don't have the scruples to bang a target 10 yards away?

    For you, does basic marksmanship equal judgement?


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array Dakotaranger's Avatar
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    Just because a person can hit the same hole from a hundred yards doesn't mean much if they don't act like adults. I've seen my share of shooters (and their aftermath) that can shoot, but shoot up signs and leaving ranges in shambles.

    If a person doesn't have at least a basic knowledge of the law they are a danger to the populace, even if they can shoot.
    "[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
    They are left in full possession of them."

    Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~Alexander Hamilton

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array DMan's Avatar
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    In some states markmanships is not a requirement for the safety cert, or for CCW. Firearms safety (from the states point of view) is the handling of the firearm in a safe manner, not hitting what your shooting at).

    I know when I was in Virginia I had to take a safety course, and the place I took it at had range time included. but it was not a requirment for the Safety Certificate, or the CCW.
    "Gun Free Zones" is where only criminals carry guns.

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    Senior Member Array mark555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMan View Post
    In some states markmanships is not a requirement for the safety cert, or for CCW. Firearms safety (from the states point of view) is the handling of the firearm in a safe manner, not hitting what your shooting at).
    Kansas does require range qualification, but I think if you were blind and your Seeing Eye dog could point you in the right direction you can qualify.
    "Hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."
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  5. #5
    Member Array Argus's Avatar
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    Here in Ohio, basically, If you were on paper you qualified. Carrying a firearm demands some personal responsibilities. Like, spending time at a range to improve your skill. The person who carries, needs to know this

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    In NC, you can "qualify" with a .22 and once you have a permit, you can carry a .44 with no questions.

    You fire 50 rounds, and as long as you can keep most of them in the torso, you pass.

    With some of the shooters I have seen at the range, sometimes it is a bit unnerving, but there is little one can do or say to help those that don't want it.
    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Here in Virginia, when teaching a basic pistol class or first steps class, I always tell everyone that these courses will qualify you to get a permit but they will NOT prepare you to carry a gun.

    I then urge them to not only get additional training but keep training frequently as these are perishable skills.

    I agree with dakotaranger. The most important thing is knowledge of the law. Remember, the permit is a permit to CARRY not a permit to shoot.

    As long as people carrying around me know the law of when they can and when they can't use lethal force, I'm satisfied (although I would like for everyone to keep practicing).

    If I were in one of the classrooms at Virginia Tech, I would have been thrilled if the armed blind guy with his seeing eye dog was in the room with me.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    The Utah CCW class (and most others from what I've heard) seem to be intended to convince idiots that their permit won't entitle them to get into gunfights over parking spaces. Any useful knowledge of how to defend yourself gained from the course is purely coincidental. I think everyone who intends to carry should follow up their CCW course with some good defensive shooting training,

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array mark555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    The Utah CCW class (and most others from what I've heard) seem to be intended to convince idiots that their permit won't entitle them to get into gunfights over parking spaces. Any useful knowledge of how to defend yourself gained from the course is purely coincidental. I think everyone who intends to carry should follow up their CCW course with some good defensive shooting training,
    That sums it up nicely.
    "Hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."
    - William Munny (Clint Eastwood in the Unfrogivin)

    “The graveyards are full of indispensable men.” – Napoleon Bonaparte

    “My Idea of a fair fight is beating baby seals with a club”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Siquentes View Post
    For you, does basic marksmanship equal judgement?
    Hitting a target or carrying a gun has absolutely nothing to do with judgement. Just because I can one hole at 25 yds with my eyes closed doesn't mean I will exercise good judgement. In fact I would argue that people who could do that would exercise poor judgement and try to take shots that most would not due to a high confidence level in their shooting skills.

    Most states that require training either don't require qualification or the qualification is minimal. Also I'll bet in at least some of those states with qualification it was added by the anti-carry side to try to weed out some people.

    I'm most familiar with VA and they don't require shooting to qualify. You can use your Hunter Ed card to apply for your permit or any NRA course, some of which do not require any range time.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark555 View Post
    Kansas does require range qualification, but I think if you were blind and your Seeing Eye dog could point you in the right direction you can qualify.
    My instructors relayed that one of their previous students couldn't see the gun in his hand but still qualified.
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

    DaddyWarcrimes.com

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array downrange's Avatar
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    ...and in states like Pa, you just can't be a felon. i think in this day and age some people forget that it is your right to protect yourself regardless whether your successful or not. as times change and laws and regs from common sense and important to crazy and head slapping make us stray from the foundation of self defence. you can't blame anyone either. today's laws, regs ,and events make CCW look like a drivers license; a privilege not a right, when i believe it's the other way around.
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  13. #13
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Good judgement and good marksmanship are not soemthing that goes hand in hand.

    Each is a seperate issue. Just because you can shoot 4" groups at 50 yards does not mean that you will have the maturity to not get in to an arguement over a parking space.

    To me, my agencies "Qualification" requirements are a joke. That's OK, I train more on my own to make up for it. I don't think you should have to be able to shoot nice 25 Yard groups to carry a CCW, but it sure is nice if you can.

    It's all about, "Lowest Common Denominator". What will the State accept as passing and what won't they. They can't make it so tough that almost nobody but a SF Operator passes, nor can they make it so easy that anyone can pass. Oh wait, I passed with a blindfold on once, just for grins and giggles. (Referring to CCW Qualification not Agency Qual)

    CCW and Safety Classes are just trying to impart the basic knowledge so that the CCW Holders and other gun handlers don't get in to an arguement over a Parking Space, nor shoot the baby in the Baby Carriage when taking their gun out of their holster to clean it.

    Biker

  14. #14
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    IMO the qualification to legally carry is not being a felon, followed by awareness of the law and legal implications of a bad shoot, followed by a willingness to be responsible.
    Accuracy has no part of it, that may seem counterintuitive but I stand by it. Accuracy comes with subsequent training and practice, it is not the state's business to train you, train yourself.
    If we disallowed people from carrying based on accuracy where would we draw the line? And it would prevent many non-felon, legally aware and willingly responsible people from protecting themselves. Which is exactly what the antis want.
    Let's not offer them more potential legislation. If a little old lady wants her permit but can't hit a fly at 25yds then I still say she should have her permit.

    Less legislation, not more.

  15. #15
    Member Array PaulBk's Avatar
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    Basic marksmanship equal judgement?

    Basic marksmanship equals just that, the ability to put holes in a stationary target in a controlled environment. As others have already pointed out, it has nothing to do with judgement. It really doesn't even have anything to do with CCW.

    For most of us mortals, those nice, tight groups we shoot when we are stationary against a stationary target open up considerably when we are moving and so is the target.

    All training is good training, but they aren't equal. Vary your drills as much as possible.

    -Paul
    Hero's aren't born, they're cornered - According to Jim

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