Shooting Threat at Work

This is a discussion on Shooting Threat at Work within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have two jobs. One in education and one at a gun shop. Last week someone emailed my place of employment in education and threatened ...

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Thread: Shooting Threat at Work

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    Shooting Threat at Work

    I have two jobs. One in education and one at a gun shop.

    Last week someone emailed my place of employment in education and threatened to come in shooting (to put it nicely). I never got to read the email but those who read it said it had a lot of hate speech and what-not in it directed at specific employees, naming names but also saying that he would "kill everyone."

    They were able to track the sending computer to a near-by library but they still haven't found the guy and he hasn't followed through on his threat, but let me tell you, tensions are high in my building.

    People are irritable and jumping at every little thing and the buzz around the office is "When it's going to happen?" and some people are really starting to go crazy with fear and nerves.

    Personally, I'm not to horribly worried. People who do this kind of stuff don't usually send an email ahead of time warning of their intentions, they just come in blazing.

    I know all of the exits in my building. I know there are plenty of places to find cover from. I know all lines of sight and any path he may logically take. I also know that either direction he came into my division, I'm in an ideal location to either return fire or to flee.

    Also, as my other job leaves me working on the other side of a wall from an indoor gun range, I know EXACTLY what gun fire (in every caliber) sounds like in the next room.

    I have, however, started to look at my temporary carry piece (while my primary is at the 'smith) in a different light.

    My Colt Mustang is fabulous for up-close and personal combat. At 5-7 yards it performs well. However, any further out and accuracy goes way down. Also, it's .380.

    Granted, a .380 will bring down an attacker, but if a wacko comes into my building shooting, by the time he reaches me or my division it will have been established that he's here for one purpose alone, killing, and return fire is the only option to bring him down. I may have to take a shot at 10-15 yards and while there are other people running, screaming, trying to escape and while he's walking around, I'm may need a gun with a little more accuracy and perhaps a little more oomph.

    I'm getting more training with one of our instructors at my other work here in the next week. He used to train SWAT teams and I've seen him shoot. I could learn a thing or two from him (i.e. ALOT), and I think I may start carrying a different gun to work.

    I really hope this guy never acts on his threats and better yet, I hope they find him and nail him to the wall, but in the mean time, it's funny (not "haha" funny either) how threats can make you reconsider a few things in your carry life.

    I also think it's slightly interesting that my place of employment in education where I could loose my job if it's found that I carry has gotten a threat, but my other place of employment where every single one of us carries and practices regularly has never even had a robbery attempt, much less a threat... hmmm.. I wonder if there is anything to that?
    Last edited by limatunes; May 13th, 2007 at 02:03 PM.

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    of course your place of employment took away your right to protect yourself -- sad

    lawsuit

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    My personal thought is to always carry a gun that you would fight a war with...because when you need it,that is what you are doing...fighting a war.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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    Ex Member Array HOLYROLLER's Avatar
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    What are you thinking of switching to Lima? Something full size? 1911 Im sure.

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    Lima, thanks to suggestions from another poster, I've found that I can easily get center mass at 5-7 yards by point shooting my Mustang. Beyond that range, well I think unless you are pretty good under pressure and experienced, you risk wild shots that might hit someone besides the BG. Maybe, in that longer range situation the better part of valor is to seek cover and hold your fire.

    My other gun, besides the Mustang, is a .40 SW, but it also has a short barrel--3.5 inch. Not much longer range accuracy to be found there. And if you go for a longer weapon, you can't conceal as well or easily.

    Thanks for the tips last week on cleaning the extractor. I was amazed at how fouled it was with caked powder residue.

    No chance to test fire since cleaning it, as this is mothers day.

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    Lima does this mean you are gonna go ahead and pick up that new 1911 sooner than you thought?
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

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    Quote Originally Posted by me View Post
    Lima does this mean you are gonna go ahead and pick up that new 1911 sooner than you thought?
    Maybe! At very least I'm going to carry my Bersa in the meantime. It has superior accuracy at greater distances.

    I know it's my responsibility to try to escape, but if it comes down to watching someone get shot and a gun pointed at me or taking a 15 yard shot, I hope I have both the courage and the equipment to make that shot.

    I'll never know whether I'll have the courage or not unless, God forbid, it happens. I can know whether or not I have the equipment and I don't think I do.

    The way our office is set up, if he came from either direction I would have to run down a hall and with the others trying to flee it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. I could run and hope I don't get a bullet in my back, hide under my desk listening to him shooting and hope he doesn't find me, or return fire. I like my chances better if he's bleeding by my bullet.

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    I don't know the laws in PA, so this is clearly not legal advice. But, if I were in the situation you describe I would not be able to look at myself in a mirror again if I ran while my coworkers and friends were targets for some madman. It is sad that our society does so much to even prevent others from defending those that won't defend themselves. But, it is reality.

    I pray that you don't find yourself in the position where you have to act one way or the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I have two jobs. One in education and one at a gun shop.

    Last week someone emailed my place of employment in education and threatened to come in shooting (to put it nicely). <snip>
    People are irritable and jumping at every little thing and the buzz around the office is "When it's going to happen?" and some people are really starting to go crazy with fear and nerves.
    I hope this all blows over without the need for you to get involved in (or exposed to) bloodshed. But I find it striking that in the new, post-Virginia-Tech atmosphere, people are still running around going, "Oh what do we do?, what do we do?! with NO CLUE as to the positive value of armed self defense.

    You know what? Apart from you, who evidently are smart enough (and determined to survive enough) to carry despite the moronic rules, the rest of them kinda deserve whatever happens.

    If the guy comes in shooting and killing, he'll be only doing what he TOLD THEM WAY AHEAD OF TIME what he was going to do. Every day that they saunter into work defenseless is another day they wasted his warning.

    Let's flash forward: What if, a week from now, he does come in and, encountering a bunch of forewarned-but-still-pathetically-unarmed workers, he kills 11 of them. Pretend you are to be out that day. What the hell will the public response from the top of the ladder be?! What will they say about an office full of people who were warned about a potential massacre with a specific threat, but who kept coming in to work having decided nothing but where they planned to hide or what door they planned to try to escape out of?[/i]

    Forgive me for saying so, but one of the best things that could happen would be for you to be out that day (safely out of the situation), and this guy comes in and kills a bunch of people who knew they were going to be attacked and did nothing to help themselves -- in large part because it was "against the rules." It would probably, in the end, save lives -- IF the news media allowed it to be known that a) he had already warned everyone, and b) the only change that took place in the preparedness of the office is that everyone came in scared every day.

    How would it save lives? It might encourage more vehement contemptuous dialog condemning the idiotic policy of disarming the victim. Maybe more people would stop obeying that absurd rule.

    I also think it's slightly interesting that my place of employment in education where I could lose my job if it's found that I carry has gotten a threat, but my other place of employment where every single one of us carries and practices regularly has never even had a robbery attempt, much less a threat... hmmm.. I wonder if there is anything to that?
    I respect your decision to put your life and safety first even if it jeopardizes your employment.

    If you were to be found out, without this guy coming in shooting, and fired for carrying, I would hope you'd make a HUGE ISSUE of it, hopefully in the media, and embarrass the hell out of them about forcing employees to be defenseless.

    Good luck.

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    I cannot believe that you just said that you would like to see someone come in and shoot a group of innocent people while the one armed person was out of the building. I'm sorry, but that is a disgusting thing for a human being to think.
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    I am going to speak from two different directions here.

    First, limatunes, since you work at a gun shop borrow one until your EDC is back. Don't depend on a pistol that you are not comfortable with.

    Echo_Four, I think you misread what PJ stated. I went back and read his post several more times and I do not see that he said or intimated that he "would like to see someone come in and shoot a group of innocent people while the one armed person was out of the building." If he had I would agree that it was a disgusting comment. However if you will read the post his comment was that if the person making the threat were to come in and kill some people the best overall result would be gotten if limatunes was not present. Why? Because the threat was made and the powers did nothing to prevent it and through their policy of no guns had in fact made it easier for the shooter. I don't know if he is right or not and I don't know if I had come to the same conclusion that I would have posted it, but if I did I wouldn't want someone criticizing me while misinterpreting what I said. Let's be careful not to jump to conclusions and not to criticize someone for the wrong reason. Thanks.

    Forgive me for saying so, but one of the best things that could happen would be for you to be out that day (safely out of the situation), and this guy comes in and kills a bunch of people who knew they were going to be attacked and did nothing to help themselves -- in large part because it was "against the rules." It would probably, in the end, save lives -- IF the news media allowed it to be known that a) he had already warned everyone, and b) the only change that took place in the preparedness of the office is that everyone came in scared every day.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

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    Concealed carrying is a compromise between full size and concealability to me. Unless you can find the perfect gun (full size) to fit you, you may need to find a smaller size pistol to carry.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Seems to me that this is the perfect time to have all the 'potential victims' at the educational employer sit down together and discuss not only their feelings about this matter, but also a plan of action should this incident transpire. Might be a good time to bring up the subject of concealed carry. It would be a good opportunity to possibly bring up the benefits of concealed carry and dispel a lot of the myths that seem to float around the "educated elite". Maybe you could give them an education.

    Go with whatever you can shoot the most accurately, even in the smaller calibers, and then PRACTICE. A good number of years ago I shot PD qualifications with a PPK .380, back when they actually scored points, not just hits. The distances were 7, 15, 25, and 50 yards. I know several officers that qualified with 2" .38 specials. This does not mean that I favor smaller calibers. I personally prefer a .45 or .357. Just don't overgun yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post

    You know what? Apart from you, who evidently are smart enough (and determined to survive enough) to carry despite the moronic rules, the rest of them kinda deserve whatever happens.

    Good luck.
    Sorry, Peaceful Jeffery,

    But what about people lawfully going about their work makes them 'deserving' of this BG coming in and threatening them, let alone, wounding or killing them? That is just WRONG, in my book.

    While I agree they are not being smart, people shouldn't have to die for being stupid. I, for one, and most of us, would have been dead already if that is the penalty for stupidity. Clueless is not a crime.
    Nor is it deserving of death.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

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    Any way you cut it right now the employer is setting themselves up for a big lawsuit if this guy comes in.

    I see 2 separate issues right now. One is the immediate threat and the second is policy. Without a doubt, there is a need for immediate, qualified, armed security professionals. I'm guessing at least 2 depending upon the location. This addresses the immediate threat.

    Changing CCW policy is going to take a little longer. I'm sure there are quite a few issues that need to be addressed prior to making a change, including liability insurance for instance. There is no way they are going to let a "regular" employee carry concealed and be responsible. I wouldn't want to be the one carrying in this situation. I would prefer to have armed security professionals. I would just want to be the backup.

    I will say that in this situation there would be a reasonable chance I would ignore the policy and take my chances. But my employment skills, finances and living situation would allow me to take this chance
    Pitmaster

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    HAGAR: To sign a peace treaty with the King of England.
    HELGA: Then why take all those weapons?
    HAGAR: First we gotta negotiate...

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