Too much or not enough training required?

This is a discussion on Too much or not enough training required? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In Missouri an 8 hour CCW course is required with a live fire range shoot that includes 50 rounds of Revolver and 50 rounds of ...

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Thread: Too much or not enough training required?

  1. #16
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    In Missouri an 8 hour CCW course is required with a live fire range shoot that includes 50 rounds of Revolver and 50 rounds of Semi-automatic, regardless of which type of gun you carry.

    This requirement can be waived if, in the past, you have documented evidence of completeing a "recognized" shooting safety class, either civilian or military as long as it includes both revolver and semi-automatic pistols. I believe it is the up to the Sheriff to decide if that documented class meets the requirements.

    Also obtaining your ccw permit must be done within the county in which you reside and the 8 hour ccw course you take must be one approved by your county Sheriff. (For example, if you live in Kansas City but decide to take an 8 hour ccw class being offered in St. Louis while you are there visiting, when you apply for your ccw permit back in your home county, the Sheriff, may not recognize the 8 hour ccw course you took in St. Louis).

    While Missouri is a "Shall Issue" state and the Sheriff must issue a permit to those who are not forbidden by state statute, the Sheriff has the authority to approve which training is accepted in his county.

    This has been a minor issue for those people who live in small rural counties where a ccw class is not being offered more than 2 or 3 times a year and people will go somewhere else to get the required 8 hour ccw class.

    So it is encumbant on the applicant to make sure their county Sheriff will accept the training class they attend before they waste their money. (Usually all that entails is the instructor for the ccw class submit a copy of his course synopsis and his instructor credentials for the sheriff to review and approve).

    It's kind of a "power" thing but again, it could cost you $100 if you do not take a class approved by the sheriff of the county in which you will apply for your permit.

    Once you have your CCW permit, it doesn't matter which county you live in and you are free to move about the state. If you do move to a new county, you do have to notify the sheriff of the new county you move to. It has no bearing on your renewals as your 8 hour ccw safety class is a one time deal for your initial permit.


    Is all this good or bad? Hell, i'm just happy that Missouri is finally a "Shall Issue" state! It took us years to finally get it passed.

    We had a ballot issue a few years ago that failed because of the anti-gunners in Kansas City and St. Louis even though it passed in 110 of the 114 Missouri counties. Then when it passed the Mo. House and Senate it was vetoed by the governor and finally we ended up with a legislative overide of the governor's veto in order to get it passed!
    Last edited by Bark'n; May 15th, 2007 at 12:38 PM.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
    I don't think any training or licensing should be necessary. My reasoning is very simple: self-defense is one of the most basic of all human rights and therefore should not require any sort of government sanction; as such any government involvement is an invasion of "certain unalienable Rights."

    Is appropriate training a good idea? Of course it is! That should go without saying. Carrying a gun without proper training is a stupid thing to do. Period. End of discussion. But just because people SHOULD get training, that does not give the government the authority to invade this most basic of human rights and REQUIRE training!

    Do I like the idea that there might be people out there carrying guns without training? HELL NO!!! But they're out there already--they're called "criminals"--so I don't get to decide about that. What's more, I don't like the idea that people are on the internet posting ignorant, illogical rants about a whole slew of things, but that doesn't give me or the government the authority to invade THAT basic human right, either!

    No, neither training nor licensing should be a requirement before you are allowed to appropriately defend your life from lethal attack.
    I want to say something whitty about finding this a very compelling post, but I'm having funny bone problems. I'll just say that this wins my favorite post for the thread award, including my own thread starter.
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  4. #18
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Thank you for the compliment. Here's another way to look at it...

    Ask yourself, should you be required to carry a government-issued license before you are allowed to respond appropriately to a lethal attack?

    When you word the question correctly, the answer becomes self-evident.
    Last edited by denverd0n; May 15th, 2007 at 02:55 PM.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
    Ask yourself, should we only allow people who have a government-issued license to have the means to appropriately defend themselves against a lethal attack?

    When you word the question correctly, the answer becomes self-evident.

    A better question is this: If the writers of the Consitution intended for the people to defend themselves, in no small part from a tyrannical government (which at the time they had just been through), why do we let the governement it is intended to protect us from have any sort of licensing or records of personal weapons? So they know who to look for when they come to get them?

    It sounds a little paranoid, but thats exactly what would happen should we ever be faced with another revolution.

  6. #20
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    What may I ask is the magic number when it comes to training? Is it 2 hrs, 4 hrs, 8 hrs, 50 hrs, a life time? Two hours of intense well planned training is better than ten hours of crap but how do you judge? I think states that mandate a certain number of hours are foolish. 10 hours of really great material presented by a poor instructor is just as useless.

    Even though I am an instructor and make a few bucks from it I don't believe the 2A requires training to protect oneself and bear arms. I very much recommend training, and think you would be making a mistake not to get training in the law(s) that pertain to CCW in your state, but I do not believe it should be required. Also, if you allow the state to dictate what is required they can make the training so difficult and expensive that virtually nobody will pass. Now we are back to May Issue in reality.

    My classes run 6-8 hours depending on how many people are in the class. The more people, the more questions, the longer the class. As an instructor I don't want to be looking at my watch saying, "oh brother, I have two people in this class that aren't asking questions and I need to fill in another hour just to meet some stupid government requirement". I don't know how to present all the information I have in less time really but it should not be mandated.
    Last edited by havegunjoe; May 15th, 2007 at 03:21 PM.
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  7. #21
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    I want to point out also that I agree with most of you. I don't think the 2A places any requirements on your rights to bear arms and your right to protect yourself and your loved ones...

    As far as I'm concerned it's all about "Personal Responsibility" and taking responsibility for your actions.

    If you shoot and kill the wrong person you are guilty of Negligent Homicide, plain and simple and you should be treated as a criminal. If you cripple an innocent person because of your poor marksmanship, you're guilty of willful disregard and reckless endangerment and should be held criminally as well as civilly liable for your action.

    But reality is... we have a long, long way to go before all 50 states will allow concealed carry without permits and some requirements so until then, we have to abide by the rules or pay the consequences.

    I also don't believe that "every" person in the country has a right to have a gun or carry a gun. I do believe people should forfeit certain rights after being convicted of certain crimes and felonies as well as people who has been adjudicated in a court of law to be a mental defect. I think those rules are just common sense and not unreasonable.
    -Bark'n
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  8. #22
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    I think the wording of my earlier post betrayed me a bit. I am not in anwy way for a required class for carry. I just wish a State Approved class was available for anyone who wanted to take it. My state, to my knowledge, does not have a class and I had to wade through the laws on my own and determing what people told me that was correct and false. If the state had some approved class available it would make the understanding of concealed carry easier on new commers or even those of us who grew up with it but had some misconceptions on where was legal to carry, my misconceptions were stricter than the laws.
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  9. #23
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    PA doesn't require training... That's the way it should be.

  10. #24
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    Some people can't afford to do the class. Some are elderly and can't stand on their feet that long. Some have other handicaps or problems. Get over it - it is NOT supposed to be an exclusive club, it is the right of every citizen!
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  11. #25
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    I posted before that I had three converts that are now in their way to get their Fla CCW. Two of them are ex military so they did not need to take the class, the third one is a civilian so he took the class. To all three I told the same thing: 1) Get Florida Firearms Law, Use and Ownership book and MEMORIZE the darn thing. 2) Get self-defense training and keep practicing.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  12. #26
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    So some of you are saying that training should be required before you get to exercise your second amendment right. Do you think that you need training to exercise your 1st amendment right?

    You can not go to church until you can prove you have read the Bible from front to back, and take a test to prove you understand it, mostly Revelations.

    You can not write a news paper article or get on a TV news cast and discuss any subject you are not an expert on that subject, (I am really for this one when it comes to doing stories on Concealed Handgun Laws).

    If a person has not been convicted of a FELONY and they are not incarcerated for being mentally ill, then the 2nd Amendment give them the right to bear arms.

    It is pretty simple: the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. If you test me if you make me do anything other than walking in to a gun store and making sure I am not a felon then you are infringing.
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  13. #27
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    I agree Timmy... Whole heartedly.... I do think Felons and those who are mental defects should have those rights forfeited... but for the rest of US Citizens... It is a right to use deadly force in defending against deadly force and you have the right to have to tools to do so.

    But, having that blanket freedom in all 50 states will be a long, long, long time coming... if ever.

    It ain't right.... but that's the way it is!
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array jeep45238's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy View Post
    So some of you are saying that training should be required before you get to exercise your second amendment right. Do you think that you need training to exercise your 1st amendment right?

    You can not go to church until you can prove you have read the Bible from front to back, and take a test to prove you understand it, mostly Revelations.

    You can not write a news paper article or get on a TV news cast and discuss any subject you are not an expert on that subject, (I am really for this one when it comes to doing stories on Concealed Handgun Laws).

    If a person has not been convicted of a FELONY and they are not incarcerated for being mentally ill, then the 2nd Amendment give them the right to bear arms.

    It is pretty simple: the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. If you test me if you make me do anything other than walking in to a gun store and making sure I am not a felon then you are infringing.
    Partly, I believe that you DO have to unergo training to use your first amendment rights. Advanced communication skills aren't something we are born with.
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  15. #29
    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    Jeep

    I have seen a number of TV stories and newspaper story from reporters that have no idea what the heck they are talking about, mostly if the story is a gun related story. Take the assault ban news coverage were the reporters doing that story gun smart or gun dumb?
    Timmy Jimmy

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy View Post
    So some of you are saying that training should be required before you get to exercise your second amendment right. Do you think that you need training to exercise your 1st amendment right?

    You can not go to church until you can prove you have read the Bible from front to back, and take a test to prove you understand it, mostly Revelations.

    You can not write a news paper article or get on a TV news cast and discuss any subject you are not an expert on that subject, (I am really for this one when it comes to doing stories on Concealed Handgun Laws).

    If a person has not been convicted of a FELONY and they are not incarcerated for being mentally ill, then the 2nd Amendment give them the right to bear arms.

    It is pretty simple: the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. If you test me if you make me do anything other than walking in to a gun store and making sure I am not a felon then you are infringing.

    I was saying your 1st paragraph should apply. Linking being armed to driving a car, which you don't get to do until you've taken a class or proved proficiency. But after reading denverd0n's post (#11), I've changed my mind. It still scares me that folks with no training would be running around armed, but now agree that it is a matter of personal responsibility. I guess that what this forum is for. Share views and learn. I've learned today.

    There have been a number of other great posts here, by the way, but denvered0ns' really struck home.
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