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Too much or not enough training required?

3K views 44 replies 27 participants last post by  one eyed fatman 
#1 ·
I know a lot of guys that think it's bunk that any training at all is required to obtain a carry permit. I happen to disagree, and think that Michigans' 8 hour requirement is really a bare minimum. I also see where more would become too expensive for many. I guess I'm wondering what other states require and how you feel about it.

I've also heard of proposed legislation here that would allow Military Veterans to skip the required training, and I have to disagree with that too. Yeah, I learned how to shoot an M16 and a beretta. I learned nothing about civilian use of force laws. So, one day my car alarm went off and I took my gun out to shoot the SOB stealing my car. Good thing there was noone out there, 'cause I was 18, and completely ignorant that I was gonna have a bad 10-20 years. All I knew is the the good 'ol boys always talked about putting someone down if they tried to take their car or whatever, so I figured I would too. Glad I'm still here to alk about with you guys, instead of my cellmate. Assuming my cellmate wouldn't mind the pillow talk.
 
#2 ·
I don't think the 10 hour class/2 hour range is enough for Ohio myself. It's essentially an NRA basic safety course with a hint on use of force. The range was anything from the outer ring in, slow fire, no pressure.

I'd like to see a staged license by caliber, you can only carry what you qualified with and under. I'd also like to see a 1 course per year requirement, so everybody is getting more advanced courses at least once per year.

Call me a prick, but if somebody is having trouble at 7 yards or under with a .22 target pistol, in that kind of enviornment, I don't want to see them out in the real world with a much more powerful caliber.
 
#3 ·
OK, what does the training cover. Not for nothing but I think 8 hours is excessive.
CCW training should encompass and focus the law regarding carrying a gun. Training on proficiency is up to each individual.
 
#12 ·
BINGO!!!!

I am with you al the way Miggy. I was not required totake a class for my PA permit. Part of me wishes I had been required to because I had heard so many different people tell me different incorrect things about the law.

I just took the TN class (for something to do last saturday while I am finishing up my may term course) and I felt it to be a little excessive. As they put it, the class was a mini NRA class. I would have liked to have taken the NRA course because I want more training but this course is for CCW and the more I think about it all it should cover is the laws.
 
#4 ·
"right to keep and bear" kind of says it for me...

but then again, I spent almost 9 years in the military, and used to instruct handgun courses from time to time...:wave:

I think that it should be a requirement to graduate from high school, it should be taught in a course on "Life Skills," you know, balancing a checkbook, drown proofing, and how to properly feed, maintain and use
a firearm...:gah:

but that's just me...

I did teach a firearms safety and marksmanship class in a public high school in Ohio... carried a revolver, a rifle and a shotgun right in the front door in the morning, and right back out & home that afternoon - plain view, no cases- no one died, no one called the cops either IIRC...

:danceban: :danceban: :danceban:
 
#6 ·
There is no training requirement in Alabama. We are a "May Issue State" with the issue being up to the local Sheriff. I have never heard of anyone who could legally aquire a permit getting turned down except for a guy who had a big attitude and P.O.'d the local sheriif.

I would prefer a shall issue with mandatory training of some type.
 
#7 ·
Should it be required? Basic safety, and introduction to the laws, but thats all. In Oklahoma (shall issue) its a 4 hour class + 50 rounds at a range. It is not a class designed to teach you how to shoot, or a class designed to teach you how to defend yourself. Its designed to help keep you out of jail and be safer than you were if you had never seen a gun.

Do I think there is such a thing as to much training? You can never have enough quality training, this applies to anything in life, not just handguns.

I don't agree with the staged license by caliber. A .22 can and will kill you just as dead as a .45.
 
#9 ·
Should it be required? Basic safety, and introduction to the laws, ......... Its designed to help keep you out of jail and be safer than you were if you had never seen a gun.
My point exactly, I think that this is all that should be required. You should be able to demonstrate safe handling and a Basic Understanding of the firearm and concealed carry laws of your state.
 
#8 ·
On the one hand, the Constitution doesn't really say "Qualified individuals have the right to bear arms...." So I'm not sure it's really what the founding fathers intended to have qualification requirements.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I saw two people in my qualification class (8 hours of training then a range test), who had NEVER shot a handgun before... in fact, had just bought their guns that morning. They squeaked by the range test (which incidentally is NOT that difficult), and got their permits.

Personally, I feel that with the responsibility of carrying a loaded handgun comes a duty to be as skilled as possible. I should not ever be a danger to anyone, only to a BG who is trying to kill me. If I were a bad shot, and I accidentally killed an innocent bystander, how could I possibly live with myself knowing that I should have been practicing.

I'm not sure where I stand on the laws, but I definitely feel that the CCW community should set an example of dedication and proficiency in everything that we do. (which I believe the vast majority of CCWers agree with)
 
#10 ·
I'm a vet, so when I got my first licence in Florida I didn't have to take a course, but I did. I had no idea what the law was in regards to use of deadly force, every state is different, so I took the classroom part of the course. I didn't get out of it what I thought I should have, so I continued educating myself and still do. This forum is part of that education. The laws change, and it's my responsibility to stay informed. I'm getting older, whether I like it or not, so I must practice.
The requirements for CC are just to get you started. You need to keep training and learning. If someone doesn't, then they are taking a risk and may end up in jail, or worse. Is it enough training? No. Training is a continuous process.
 
#11 ·
I don't think any training or licensing should be necessary. My reasoning is very simple: self-defense is one of the most basic of all human rights and therefore should not require any sort of government sanction; as such any government involvement is an invasion of "certain unalienable Rights."

Is appropriate training a good idea? Of course it is! That should go without saying. Carrying a gun without proper training is a stupid thing to do. Period. End of discussion. But just because people SHOULD get training, that does not give the government the authority to invade this most basic of human rights and REQUIRE training!

Do I like the idea that there might be people out there carrying guns without training? HELL NO!!! But they're out there already--they're called "criminals"--so I don't get to decide about that. What's more, I don't like the idea that people are on the internet posting ignorant, illogical rants about a whole slew of things, but that doesn't give me or the government the authority to invade THAT basic human right, either!

No, neither training nor licensing should be a requirement before you are allowed to appropriately defend your life from lethal attack.
 
#17 ·
I want to say something whitty about finding this a very compelling post, but I'm having funny bone problems. I'll just say that this wins my favorite post for the thread award, including my own thread starter.:bier:
 
#13 ·
Hmm I guess I'm on the minority side here. I don't believe training should be a REQUIREMENT. Now, I do however, believe that we should all take the responsibility and get said training and never stop. The problem though, is once you make training a requirement it has ceased being a right and is now only a mere priviledge. Self defense with a firearm is a DIRECT COROLLARY to the Right to Life as defined in the beginning of the US Declaration of Independence and also predates any and all documents including but not limited to the Declaration of Independance and the US Constitution. Any infringment of any sort on that, IMO, is ...immoral, criminal, and punishable by death. Harsh? No, not one bit, because effectively you have restricted a person's method of defending their own life and/or the lives of their family. At that point, as far as I'm concerned...your life is forfeit.

This isn't just a second amendment issue. It's a basic human rights issue. To deprive a man of the means or tools of defense of life when he has caused you no harm is completely immoral. It's just as bad as putting a bullet in their head yourself.

Hint: Read the Sig....then read the book...and if you haven't figured it out after that...no one can help you.
 
#14 ·
In a perfect America, marksmanship and legal ramifications of owning / using a firearm would be a required course in elementary school - with annual refresher courses thereafter. That solves the problem of instruction.
 
#15 ·
Florida uses your discharge papers as a substitute for training. I agree that some training might be useful bur eight to ten hours might be out of some retirees budget due to liveing on a fixed income. You can have all kinds of training but without common sense it is useless.
 
#16 · (Edited)
In Missouri an 8 hour CCW course is required with a live fire range shoot that includes 50 rounds of Revolver and 50 rounds of Semi-automatic, regardless of which type of gun you carry.

This requirement can be waived if, in the past, you have documented evidence of completeing a "recognized" shooting safety class, either civilian or military as long as it includes both revolver and semi-automatic pistols. I believe it is the up to the Sheriff to decide if that documented class meets the requirements.

Also obtaining your ccw permit must be done within the county in which you reside and the 8 hour ccw course you take must be one approved by your county Sheriff. (For example, if you live in Kansas City but decide to take an 8 hour ccw class being offered in St. Louis while you are there visiting, when you apply for your ccw permit back in your home county, the Sheriff, may not recognize the 8 hour ccw course you took in St. Louis).

While Missouri is a "Shall Issue" state and the Sheriff must issue a permit to those who are not forbidden by state statute, the Sheriff has the authority to approve which training is accepted in his county.

This has been a minor issue for those people who live in small rural counties where a ccw class is not being offered more than 2 or 3 times a year and people will go somewhere else to get the required 8 hour ccw class.

So it is encumbant on the applicant to make sure their county Sheriff will accept the training class they attend before they waste their money. (Usually all that entails is the instructor for the ccw class submit a copy of his course synopsis and his instructor credentials for the sheriff to review and approve).

It's kind of a "power" thing but again, it could cost you $100 if you do not take a class approved by the sheriff of the county in which you will apply for your permit.

Once you have your CCW permit, it doesn't matter which county you live in and you are free to move about the state. If you do move to a new county, you do have to notify the sheriff of the new county you move to. It has no bearing on your renewals as your 8 hour ccw safety class is a one time deal for your initial permit.


Is all this good or bad? Hell, i'm just happy that Missouri is finally a "Shall Issue" state! It took us years to finally get it passed.

We had a ballot issue a few years ago that failed because of the anti-gunners in Kansas City and St. Louis even though it passed in 110 of the 114 Missouri counties. Then when it passed the Mo. House and Senate it was vetoed by the governor and finally we ended up with a legislative overide of the governor's veto in order to get it passed!
 
#19 ·
Ask yourself, should we only allow people who have a government-issued license to have the means to appropriately defend themselves against a lethal attack?

When you word the question correctly, the answer becomes self-evident.

A better question is this: If the writers of the Consitution intended for the people to defend themselves, in no small part from a tyrannical government (which at the time they had just been through), why do we let the governement it is intended to protect us from have any sort of licensing or records of personal weapons? So they know who to look for when they come to get them?

It sounds a little paranoid, but thats exactly what would happen should we ever be faced with another revolution.
 
#20 · (Edited)
What may I ask is the magic number when it comes to training? Is it 2 hrs, 4 hrs, 8 hrs, 50 hrs, a life time? Two hours of intense well planned training is better than ten hours of crap but how do you judge? I think states that mandate a certain number of hours are foolish. 10 hours of really great material presented by a poor instructor is just as useless.

Even though I am an instructor and make a few bucks from it I don't believe the 2A requires training to protect oneself and bear arms. I very much recommend training, and think you would be making a mistake not to get training in the law(s) that pertain to CCW in your state, but I do not believe it should be required. Also, if you allow the state to dictate what is required they can make the training so difficult and expensive that virtually nobody will pass. Now we are back to May Issue in reality.

My classes run 6-8 hours depending on how many people are in the class. The more people, the more questions, the longer the class. As an instructor I don't want to be looking at my watch saying, "oh brother, I have two people in this class that aren't asking questions and I need to fill in another hour just to meet some stupid government requirement". I don't know how to present all the information I have in less time really but it should not be mandated.
 
#21 ·
I want to point out also that I agree with most of you. I don't think the 2A places any requirements on your rights to bear arms and your right to protect yourself and your loved ones...

As far as I'm concerned it's all about "Personal Responsibility" and taking responsibility for your actions.

If you shoot and kill the wrong person you are guilty of Negligent Homicide, plain and simple and you should be treated as a criminal. If you cripple an innocent person because of your poor marksmanship, you're guilty of willful disregard and reckless endangerment and should be held criminally as well as civilly liable for your action.

But reality is... we have a long, long way to go before all 50 states will allow concealed carry without permits and some requirements so until then, we have to abide by the rules or pay the consequences.

I also don't believe that "every" person in the country has a right to have a gun or carry a gun. I do believe people should forfeit certain rights after being convicted of certain crimes and felonies as well as people who has been adjudicated in a court of law to be a mental defect. I think those rules are just common sense and not unreasonable.
 
#22 ·
I think the wording of my earlier post betrayed me a bit. I am not in anwy way for a required class for carry. I just wish a State Approved class was available for anyone who wanted to take it. My state, to my knowledge, does not have a class and I had to wade through the laws on my own and determing what people told me that was correct and false. If the state had some approved class available it would make the understanding of concealed carry easier on new commers or even those of us who grew up with it but had some misconceptions on where was legal to carry, my misconceptions were stricter than the laws.
 
#24 ·
Some people can't afford to do the class. Some are elderly and can't stand on their feet that long. Some have other handicaps or problems. Get over it - it is NOT supposed to be an exclusive club, it is the right of every citizen!
 
#25 ·
I posted before that I had three converts that are now in their way to get their Fla CCW. Two of them are ex military so they did not need to take the class, the third one is a civilian so he took the class. To all three I told the same thing: 1) Get Florida Firearms Law, Use and Ownership book and MEMORIZE the darn thing. 2) Get self-defense training and keep practicing.
 
#26 ·
So some of you are saying that training should be required before you get to exercise your second amendment right. Do you think that you need training to exercise your 1st amendment right?

You can not go to church until you can prove you have read the Bible from front to back, and take a test to prove you understand it, mostly Revelations.

You can not write a news paper article or get on a TV news cast and discuss any subject you are not an expert on that subject, (I am really for this one when it comes to doing stories on Concealed Handgun Laws).

If a person has not been convicted of a FELONY and they are not incarcerated for being mentally ill, then the 2nd Amendment give them the right to bear arms.

It is pretty simple: the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. If you test me if you make me do anything other than walking in to a gun store and making sure I am not a felon then you are infringing.
 
#27 ·
I agree Timmy... Whole heartedly.... I do think Felons and those who are mental defects should have those rights forfeited... but for the rest of US Citizens... It is a right to use deadly force in defending against deadly force and you have the right to have to tools to do so.

But, having that blanket freedom in all 50 states will be a long, long, long time coming... if ever.

It ain't right.... but that's the way it is!
 
#29 ·
Jeep

I have seen a number of TV stories and newspaper story from reporters that have no idea what the heck they are talking about, mostly if the story is a gun related story. Take the assault ban news coverage were the reporters doing that story gun smart or gun dumb?
 
#33 ·
To be able to own a gun there needs to be some standards. I think there needs to be at least 400 hours of training, a lengthy background check, mental health check, finger prints and DNA sample, shooting qualification, a substantial fee, proof of insurance or bond, and a waiting/cooling off period.

The training should include at a minimum:

- 40 hours of Mindset
- 40 hours of firearm safety
- 40 hours of legal issues
- 40 hours of de-escalation and avoidance
- 40 hours of physical fitness
- 40 hours of combatives
- 40 hours of weapon retention
- 40 hours of low light shooting
- 40 hours of home and vehicle tactics
- 40 hours of force on force

It's only 400 hours of training. That's only 10 weeks if you do it full time. What's two and a half months when we're talking the responsibility of owning a lethal and dangerous weapon.

This training and should be accompanied by a $10,000 application fee to be sure that applicants are serious and of proper financial standing to be considered for permit approval.

Once you have the training and have paid your application fee the full background check, fingerprint and DNA submission and mental health tests can begin. If you pass those you can schedule your shooting qualification practical. Pistol shooting from 0 to 150 yards. 90% time and accuracy requirement to pass.

Now take and pass the 150 question legal exam covering relevant case law and you're ready for your 90 day waiting period to begin. This is also the point where you need to pay your $1,000,000 bond or provide proof of liability insurance in excess of that amount.

90 days later and CONGRATS! You're a gun owner.

Gun ownership is very serious and needs to have some testing and standards that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are willing to take that responsibility seriously.

Or we could just let citizens own and carry guns like free people in a free society should.
 
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