If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this...

This is a discussion on If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Pitmaster Don't forget the gangstas shoot until empty and don't really care about innocent bystanders. The rest of the world is a ...

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Thread: If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this...

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitmaster View Post
    Don't forget the gangstas shoot until empty and don't really care about innocent bystanders. The rest of the world is a little more discriminatory about who they shoot at.
    That's true, but my take was that they're still getting 68% hits on cops.
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  3. #17
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    So I guess I'll have to get a set of these:
    (wonder if they come in left hand?)
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    As much as people make fun of the gangster canting of the gun, that is a correct method for one handed instictive shooting.
    Also, their success rate is going to be higher because they start the fight. More often than not, their gun is in hand. Officers weapon is drawn for a holster and the LEO has the element of suprise to deal with.
    Sixto's correct with what he's saying............just remember how the Isreali secret service and Massad <SP> teach their students..........The gansta's shoot in a very similar fashon<weapon canted to one side> very controlable and effective.. try it sometime yourself and you'll see..
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Instictive shooting

    If your in a shootout, your shooting instictivly, unless it's a long range ordeal with a rifle.

    IMO close combat=insictive in the most basic sense of the word.

    No time to think, just react. Muscle memory and reflex are the driving forces.

    any of you who have ever shot moving targets at any speed know that when the time comes, the gun has to move fluidly to position and when the mind registers the trigger is pulled. No real time for thinking. You may plan it and think it through ahead of time, but when it comes time to engage the target, thinking is what makes you miss. You have to let go of the thought process and let your body react to the visual stimuli of gun, target, movement, and allow your body process to pull the trigger when it's time. It's the ability to let go and let your instinct take over that makes you able to hit when it counts. The part of the brain that controls that is far faster than the part that makes rational thinking posible.

    When I shoot clays or flushing, fast flying birds, the shot happens automatically and when the trigger is pulled I somehow know if it's a hit or missbefore I see the clay break or the bird fall. I can usually tell if I miss too. I don't remember mounting the gun or aiming it, it just happens by instict in most cases. Occasionally on a log shot you have a split second to think about lead, usually if you do, you miss because it causes you to hesitate and stop the gun. It isn't until after the shot is over that you have time to think about it.

    Training can go a long way toward making you capable of reacting instictively in a profficient manner. You hone your reflexes and build subconscious cues in your brain and aquire muscle memory.

    how the ganstas get it I don't know. Some folks seem to be born with it. maybe they are the ones who survive long enough to make it on the streets and into these studies through natural selection???

    I have been to the range here locally and seen a lot of cops practicing shooting at paper targets. Most of them can't shoot worth a crap. They shoot at the public range so they can get good enough to re-qual I guess. From what I've seen, if any of them survive a gunfight, it will be by taking cover. Of course the good shooters in their ranks aren't at the range trying to get good enough to get by, so I'm sure there are some who are good shooters, I just haven't seen them.
    Last edited by sgtD; May 19th, 2007 at 01:16 PM.
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  6. #20
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    I think we're missing the real issue. The way I envision this going:

    LEO approaches vehicle, comes along side window, person inside starts shooting. LEO backs up while drawing, assume cover using vehicle, returns fire. Thus, the distance is greater for the LEO, the target is harder to hit- it isn't filling a window-, and the LEO may already be hit.

    We aren't comparing like situations with the two groups.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    I think we're missing the real issue. The way I envision this going:

    LEO approaches vehicle, comes along side window, person inside starts shooting. LEO backs up while drawing, assume cover using vehicle, returns fire. Thus, the distance is greater for the LEO, the target is harder to hit- it isn't filling a window-, and the LEO may already be hit.

    We aren't comparing like situations with the two groups.
    You are probably correct. And I believe the study could be skewed for that reason. I also didn't want to get too far off topic or hijack, but there is a discussion of the instictive thing in the article and I think it is the key to all of this. No matter how you hold the gun when you practice, as long as it's always the same and it works.

    There is a pretty famous shooting video, I think it was on COPS or one of those shows at one time, and can probably be foud on youtube nowadays. It was shot by the HP onboard camera.

    A higway patrolman appraoched a vehicle and the guy pulled a gun and shot at him. I think he hit him too, naybe in the vest. It was point blank range.

    The HP was stubling and twisting as he headed toward the rear of the car for retreat. I think it might have been a min-van. I will try to find and post it. Anyway, he is stubling, moving turning, drawing, pointing (Notice I didn't say aiming) and firing in constant motion. He is operating on instinct. No thoughts.

    The HP makes the shot through the back window of the car and kills the BG. the whole thing takes under two seconds and he is still off balance when it's over.

    I can tell you that that HP is one dude you don't want to mix it up with. Not many men could have made that shot under those circumstances. He likely never knew he had it in him to do it either, but he did. It was there and he won.

    I watched the tape in slow motion several times on the TV as they replayed it and I can't believe that it was just dumb luck. You could see the fear in his face, but you could also sense the automatic reactions going on. He was doing something that is beyond explanation because it was beyond thought. When the muzzle approached the spot it needed to be on his finger pulled the trigger. He never had time to think about it.

    Pure instinct.

    I would like to shake that man's hand.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  8. #22
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    Finally, how many of those instinctive hits are critical hits? Yes , instinctive shooting is a method and effective , but I think once you get out to 21-25 ft. distance , sights will help score good COM hits more than instinctive shooting will.
    Guess I will have to try some different distances and shooting styles.
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  9. #23
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    I don't this to get into a instinctive shooting debate, but there are numerous accounts of people in gunfights recalling seeing their front sights.

    In one of the more recent accounts, a civilian was caught on tape by the hotel's security camera in a shoot out with a BG. The GG said he clearly remembers seeing his sights.

    Jim Cirillo was in probably more gunfights than anyone, and he clearly remembers using his sights.

    But let's assume for sake of discussion that it is true that we shoot instinctively in a gunfight. How's that workin' out for us? Cops are getting a 28&#37; hit ratio shooting instinctively.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Finally, how many of those instinctive hits are critical hits? Yes , instinctive shooting is a method and effective , but I think once you get out to 21-25 ft. distance , sights will help score good COM hits more than instinctive shooting will.
    Guess I will have to try some different distances and shooting styles.
    Agreed. Very good point. The distance at which instinctive shooting would be effective is probably very short with a handgun. Aimed fire is certainly more effective when ther is time for it. Even a second or two.

    Very interesting thought.
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  11. #25
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    Time for sights? How much time does it take to shoot with the sights?
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I don't this to get into a instinctive shooting debate, but there are numerous accounts of people in gunfights recalling seeing their front sights.

    In one of the more recent accounts, a civilian was caught on tape by the hotel's security camera in a shoot out with a BG. The GG said he clearly remembers seeing his sights.

    Jim Cirillo was in probably more gunfights than anyone, and he clearly remembers using his sights.

    But let's assume for sake of discussion that it is true that we shoot instinctively in a gunfight. How's that workin' out for us? Cops are getting a 28&#37; hit ratio shooting instinctively.
    I don't want to argue either, but am stimulated by these issues. Ok, I'm quitting after this post becuase i feel like I'm being a butt head and typing too much.

    I don't think, and didn't want to imply that you don't see the sights. You do. When shooting clays you are aware of the location of the muzzle, just as the shooters you mentioned were aware of their front sights. When shoting fast moving steel plates you see the sights, but your mind makes you pull the trigger at the right moment without a formal thought process. At least I do.

    The instict is knowing when things are aligned or coming into alignment and pulling the trigger without having to go think about it.

    You improve your ability to do that through practice and arguably aimed fire. Maybe what my point is that you have to be able to do both?? Or maybe I'm just lucky when I score hits?

    SgtD out.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  13. #27
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    Shot IDPA this morning and one of the guys was a cop. Darned good shooter too - fast and accurate.

    He did tho comment that (arbitrary rule maybe) - that he only felt he was using sights when distance exceeded the 7 yard region.

    I think this can be the case for many people, altho not as specific as a given yardage - just that as distance increases so too fractionally does time sometimes ....... and with that a progression thru increasing distance to more sighted shooting.
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  14. #28
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    How do we know the BG's are shooting w/ the gun sideways? Some may be shooting typical and not realizing the sights are lined up. Instinctive shooting for them may not be the same definition as it is to us.
    I feel we all need to personally evaluate what works for us , at different distances and situations. I can instinctively shoot and get COM hits , even shooting with a rifle from the hip at 30 yrds.
    Finds what works for YOU and use it.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Ok, I lied. I'm posting one more thing.

    I want to thank you folks for your patience with my ramblings and or your valuable input.

    Most of you guys have way more pistol time behind you than I do, and I respet that, so don't think i don't.

    I have spent most of my shooting life with shotguns and rifles, probably 75&#37;. I am a good shot wit a handgun, but not up to the standards of you IDPA folks like Chris.

    Coming from the shotgun world though, I have studied and experienced a lot of instictive shooting. I can't articulate it well, but it's just something you feel when it happens. You guys know what I'm talking about becuase you are all great shooters in your own rights I'm sure.

    What Chris just posted about what the cop said is some of what i was getting at.

    Take care. I have a honey do list waiting, and a wife who can shoot.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  16. #30
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    To me they will have a high hit rate because when ever you see a hold up the BG is within 2-3 feet of their target. If you miss that you really need to move on from illegal work and maybe get a job.

    I also cant see shooting someone on the ground a hard target to hit. I bet you if they tried shooting from 21 feet they would never hit jack ****. Ok, maybe take out a leg but that would be pure luck on their part. But then again, it seems most of their hits are pure luck. Only a few know how to use the firearm properly.

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