May 19th, 2007 02:28 PM
some of things the bad guy dosen't have to worry about is the rules of engagement, bystanders, or liability. This tends to give him an edge. With less stress to cope with he should be able to shoot better and usually shoots first. The one thing the LEO has going for him is backup.
Last edited by Tom G; May 19th, 2007 at 02:34 PM.
May 19th, 2007 02:43 PM
The only time I cant my weapon while shooting, is from behind a hand held ballistic shield. I have never had to deal with the stress of a real shoot out, but I practice more often than your average LEO and I hit what I'm aiming at.
Police Defensive Tactics, Firearms, Carbine Rifle and Taser Instructor
NRA Life Member
It is better to have your gun and not need it, than to need it and not have it!
You cannot choose the conditions for a gunfight, so train in all conditions!
May 19th, 2007 03:02 PM
No man, don't quit, you're doin' fine! I see what you mean by instinctive now. I'm an instinctive shooter too - I just use the sights.
Originally Posted by sgtD
By definition, instinctive means, and I quote, "having a particular quality or skill spontaneously and without effort or instruction".
I believe if you gave a gun to people that had never seen one shot and showed just them how to hold it and pull the trigger, you'd see instinctive shooting, and probably huge variations of it.
In shooting, there's another meaning of instinctive - an activity that has been trained into the subconscious. A good example is learning to drive a straight shift auto. At first, it is awkward and requires all our attention. After much driving, our driving process, be it good or bad, comes from the subconscious, not the conscious, and hence our driving skill is, for all purposes, now instinctive. But it's instinctive through training and practice.
Shooting is the same way. If we train enough, consistently, the process will be committed to the subconscious and become instinctive. I am an instinctive shooter. I always use the sights, because that's instinctive for me. But, let me qualify 'always'. 'Always' if I have the option. So, it is entirely possible that if I were in a gunfight and someone said do you remember using the sights, I'd probably say no. Why? Because I shoot with the sights subconsciously or instinctively and likely wouldn't remember seeing them.
I have told this story before but, after nearly a week at Blackwater making a conscious effort to shoot from an 'I' stance because that's what they teach and they claimed that I'd go to an 'I' stance under stress, they finally put us under stress. The stress was simply a timed draw and fire from 5 or 7 yards - don't remember which. After my turn the instructor walked up to me and asked if I realized I was shooting from a Weaver stance. I was dumbfounded; if some one had asked me what stance I shot the timed drill from, I would have said the 'I' because that's what I intended to do. But, for me, instincts over came conscious intent and I shot instinctively - for me that's a flash sight picture and a Weaver stance. BTW, not only did I shoot instinctively with a flash sight picture from a Weaver stance using a DA/SA Beretta 92FS, I beat all the much younger point shooters with their Glocks. In fact, I beat everybody.
But I have to wonder what instinctive shooting is to a relatively untrained LEO. I suspect it is focusing on the threat, pointing the gun at the threat, and firing. That seems to be yielding 28% hits. I further suspect that under the stress of the gunfight, the LEO begins firing when his eyes focus on the deadly threat instead of waiting for the gun to index. In fact, I was told at Gunsite that street experience supports that. Moreso, studies by Crimson Trace revealed that LEOs using laser sights have hit ratios in the 90% range. Why? I think part of it is because they wait for the laser to index before they fire. Then of course, there are a number of other reasons that also enter into that.
I'm too young to be this old!
Getting old isn't good for you!
May 19th, 2007 03:23 PM
Instincts for me are a bit different I think then what other Non LEO would have. Being a goalie in lacrosse and having played the number 1 team in D3 college I relied more on action then reaction. Instincts told me to act before the other did. Reacting to 85+ mph shots will get you nowhere. Along with training in Muay Thai I read what is going on and act faster then the other. (Granted, this cant always work in real life situations) I have taken this into my shooting style also. Practicing drawing and firing from the hip. Understanding what point my hand needs to be at for level fire.
Originally Posted by Tangle
I however do not shoot with out a sight picture on anything over 4-5 yards. With my HK I have no issues getting a sight picture instantly and I make sure I do. I do anywhere from 50-100 draws a day increasing my speed of draw and setting sight picture.
On top of this I practice point shooting also. I do not have any laser setup and I strictly go by how my arm is pointed. Point shooting to me is pretty damn easy, as if you are holding the gun properly its lined up with your forearm. Practice is what fixes your angle for height with each shot.
I instinct shoot skeet as well. My shotgun feels to me as an extension of my arm and I do little sight alignment with my eyes. For reference this netted me 30 out of 35 clays last time I was out.
I do however, want to start taking classes. I'd like to train as close to possible how LE/Military etc train.
May 19th, 2007 04:55 PM
I don't know if it's been said already but this so-called "Gangsta Style," is only relevant in the movies. This is not meant start an argument only discussion. It irritates me when I hear people say they were holding the gun that way. In all of the videos of altercations involving a gun I've yet to see a BG shoot like that. Now I have seen people imitate what they see in the movies. I'll try to find some evidence of this style of firing a gun in real life situations.
It comes a time in your life when you run across someone you should have never @#$$% with. Allow me to introduce myself!
May 19th, 2007 05:16 PM
I tend to agree with most of the comments as far as engagement ranges.
1) Most of the time the BG will be the one initiating the conflict.
2) It will be within arms length (“Give me your money B****!” looses its impact when delivered from 30’ away.)
3) There is not much concern about a back stop or collateral damage who cares if your target is the shopkeeper and not the 8 year old girl that is with her mother.
Where as the LEO is concerned by all those things, also the LEO is engaging from ether the disadvantage of reacting to the threat or as they are coming up on the threat and engaging as soon as they can. Who ever starts the ball and calls the tune will have the greatest advantage.
I know an LEO that took 8 COM before he could even draw his weapon; all went through his vest (this was a number of years ago) he got 6 off and put one in the BG leg. Normally he is an outstanding shot. I may be all wet but that is the way I see it.
"Hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."
- William Munny (Clint Eastwood in the Unfrogivin)
“The graveyards are full of indispensable men.” – Napoleon Bonaparte
“My Idea of a fair fight is beating baby seals with a club”
May 19th, 2007 05:18 PM
Anyone that thinks, a person pointing a gun at them, in an awkward position, is not a threat to their life, is just playing Russian Roulette. I have watched many people hit consistiently, what they are shooting at, with guns held in positions, I would not try to shoot from, unless it were my only choice.
The only thing needed for evil to exist is for good men to stand by and do nothing!!!
May 19th, 2007 05:40 PM
May 19th, 2007 07:05 PM
+1 All good points. I learned the canted style sort of recently (a few months ago) and I was told that it was the way LEO are taught.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
May 19th, 2007 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by CLASS3NH
Not to mention Isreali's usually carry full mag, empty chamber or I believe it was called, "condition 3" and rack the slide as they make their draw.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
May 19th, 2007 09:45 PM
Yep, you got my point. Your story was interesting too.
Originally Posted by Tangle
When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.
May 19th, 2007 10:02 PM
if i don't hold both arms out straight then i do the straight left hand, supported right, directly on my body. i'm left handed so switch it around for the right hand. i call it the "jack Bauer". yeah, i'm a big 24 fan. when i do the 'half supported' i do tend to cant about 15 degrees or so naturally. when i notice it i correct it and straighten it out but i still shoot just fine in any case. maybe it's a recoil thing or something i haven't thought it out. however when i practice one handed (which i don't do very often) the senses wake up and i focus straight up and down. all in all i seem to cant even though i'm still targeted and i think it happens naturally. i still qualify expert with the latest being185 out of 200 with the M-9 (military qual) so i just work with what works.
i also think if i ever got into a (heaven forbid) gun fight, and they held their firearm sideways (90 degrees) i'd smirk enough to watch stray bullets for the most part.
What's this button do?
May 19th, 2007 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by Al.40cal
The only time I've ever seen as much too has been in movies and by dummies who post themselves on YouTube purposefully imitating what they think is gangsta as per depictions in movies and on TV.
Never on the street (past) or in any video of a real world (current) shooting by a gangsta/thug type have I seen as much applied beyond a slight cant left or right when firing one handed which as mentioned early in this thread is very much natural, normal, and follow up shot accuracy beneficial.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
May 20th, 2007 12:23 AM
Next time you hit the range try shooting 90 deg off. I did, and not one round hit the target at 7 yards. No real sight picture was used. Maybe with practices.
If you don't protect your self, who will?
May 20th, 2007 12:52 AM
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