If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this...

This is a discussion on If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Violent Encounters is a FBI Report published and released by the Department of Justice. You have to read the entire report and it's two previous ...

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Thread: If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this...

  1. #46
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    Violent Encounters is a FBI Report published and released by the Department of Justice. You have to read the entire report and it's two previous reports to fully understand the out come of the reports. It was taken from 50 violent offenders and the 49 officers that were involved in the shootings and their specific cases. Some police were ambushed, some were shot with their own weapons and the shooters always had the advantage of shooting first on a responding police officer, not robbing someone.

    here is the report in a PDF format.

    www.firearmz.net/Ken/ve.pdf
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
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  3. #47
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    Ken,

    That makes sense to me. I have long thought that the poor hit percentage of LEO is caused by essentially three things: lack of training, being surprised, and the fear invoked by a life threatening confrontation.

    It seems that LEO, and anyone for that matter, do much better if they are not responding to a surprise. E.g. if the person sees the attack developing and has a moment to prepare both mentally and physically, they seem to do much better.

    While I believe training is important, Iím still not convinced that we will necessarily revert to our training in a surprise, life threatening situation. I have had lotís and lotís of consistent training and been through a lot of FOF real-life scenarios and hence have a lot of Ďingrainedí training response. But in spite of all that, under stress I have noticed that I and other students commonly abandon our training and do something really Ďuntrainedí and revert to a puzzling response.

    IMO, whatís happening is there are several layers of instinctive response. The most ingrained level is what we are born with. E.g. some, when faced with a threat will immediately bring their hands up to protect their face, others will tilt their head downward, close their eyes, and protect their heads with their arms and hands, others will jump, run, scream, some will freeze, some will wet on themselves, and do all sorts of things.

    Another layer that controls our response to a sudden threat is the ingrained, trained response. With enough training, this response will become essentially instinctive, but I believe not as deeply ingrained as the inborn instinct. Depending on the particular person and situation, the personís response may stop at the trained instinctive layer, if so, theyíre probably better off. But it seems under certain conditions, a person can/will bypass the trained instinctive layer and revert to the inborn instincts. That probably is far less protective than trained instinct.

    If we respond with the primitive, inborn instinct, we will likely lose control of our actions to a large degree, and will have a much reduced chance of surviving a deadly attack.

    The less and less intense training we have, the more likely we are to revert to the inborn instincts. The more surprise involved, the more instinctive reactive we become and in reality, we have little time to do anything else.

    I believe this is exactly what happens to when one is surprised. They have no time to implement trained responses, and about all thatís left is to improvise quickly and spontaneously in an attempt to survive.

    So the key is Ė donít be surprised. I heard an old military saying that was something like, ďto lose a battle is forgivable; to be surprised is notĒ. That kinda emphasizes the importance of not being surprised. When we hear the claims that we revert to our training, I believe thatís true if weíre not surprised. Thatís why awareness may be the best defensive weapon we have.

    Hmmm, that was way too long, sorry guys.
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  4. #48
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    My nephew has been a U.S. Border Patrol Agent for about 5 years now... He was telling me that Border Patrol still teaches "quick draw & instictive point shooting" in the academy for close in encounters.

    When he gets back from Afghanistan I plan on having him teach me the technique they use for "instinctive" shooting.

    I'm happy that after his tour in Afghanistan is up he'll be transfering to the canadian border. I've been worried that he'd have a high chance of getting killed for being too slow in deciding to defend himself or end up in prison for shooting an illegal on the southern border if he chooses to defend himself. Morale is definitely low for agents on the southern border these days.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #49
    Member Array Son Of Vlad Tepes's Avatar
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    I want to echo some of the same things others have been saying based on that FBI report. Based on what I remember reading in the report, (please read it yourselves and correct me if I'm wrong) the bad guys shot first in all but a few cases and many of the officers had already been hit before they were able to return fire. So essentially the LEO's were ambushed by a criminal that follows a no hesitation/shoot first/be damned of surrounding innocents engagement policy. I think these things are the salient points here, not whether or not the crooks used a home boy shooting technique or whether they used no holsters (the bad guys also almost invariably eschewed holsters), and I think it is because of the aforementioned salient points that the crooks are more effective at killing (who knows maybe if they used sighted fire their hit rate would be higher than 68%, especially since they have the drop on the cop and shoot first!).

    But (!!!) the report did show that the crooks tend to practice more than LEO's, and it is this that I think we should learn from the crooks, not carrying the gun without a holster, using only "instinctive" shooting, and maybe even using the gun home boy style.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    And, with SVT, the report is available, free, from the FBI's Publications Office. Well worth reading. The general point is that, much like more forward thinking instructors are teaching, "Point shooting" is a part of a continuim, not a be-all, end-all technique.

    Given that the BGs interviewed were also "progressive thinkers", they reasoned that they neede to practice, since, "that's what the cops do, every week". IOW, they gave far more credit to LE than was due, on that score. The BGs practiced in gang-held areas, where random shots would not attract attention, or a 911 call, or in the boonies.

    This report does not deal with LE homicides specifically (though I believe the 2nd or third publication in the series did), but with violent assaults, assault cues, and what the BGs saw as favorable indicators when initiating the assault.

  7. #51
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    I have read some of this study, and one of the main factors outlined is experience. The BG's from this study had been in many more shootings than the police. The BG's were able to stay calm and focused as opposed to the police who froze or panicked, which is not a criticism of the police, because that is a natural reaction. The BG's are just more used to and prone to violence, which allows them to be more comfortable and less stressed in these situations. Obviously stress causes more misses by the police.
    "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace" George Washington

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