If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this...

This is a discussion on If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Walt Rauch had an article in his Gunfighting, Guns, Gear column in the August issue of Combat Handguns that deals with how well BGs shoot ...

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Thread: If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this...

  1. #1
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    If you think BGs can't shoot from a gangsta style you'd better read this...

    Walt Rauch had an article in his Gunfighting, Guns, Gear column in the August issue of Combat Handguns that deals with how well BGs shoot in deadly encounters.

    The article is really a 'book report' on Violent Encounters by Anthony J. Pinizzotto, Ph.D., Edward F. Davis, M.S., and Charles E. Miller III. The work is based on "...800 instances of felonious assaults...." 40 included in the piece, "....involving 43 offenders and 50 officers."

    The sailient/troubling findings are:

    - The majority of offenders were instinctive shooters. One offender said it this way, "...you have the instinct or you don't. If you don't you're in trouble, on the street anyway."

    - But, contrary to popular belief, they practice, and the gangsta style works with a 68% hit rate.

    - Officers average hit rate was 29% and they shot on average from 21 to 25 feet. Quite a departure from claims that average is arm's length to 21 feet.
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    Member Array Hoozyerdaddy's Avatar
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    That's not good news at all, especially most BG's are supposed to use cheaper end guns like high-points and such. Seems like I need to try instinctive shooting with hit rates like that compared to the police rates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    Walt Rauch had an article in his Gunfighting, Guns, Gear column in the August issue of Combat Handguns that deals with how well BGs shoot in deadly encounters.

    The article is really a 'book report' on Violent Encounters by Anthony J. Pinizzotto, Ph.D., Edward F. Davis, M.S., and Charles E. Miller III. The work is based on "...800 instances of felonious assaults...." 40 included in the piece, "....involving 43 offenders and 50 officers."

    The sailient/troubling findings are:

    - The majority of offenders were instinctive shooters. One offender said it this way, "...you have the instinct or you don't. If you don't you're in trouble, on the street anyway."

    - But, contrary to popular belief, they practice, and the gangsta style works with a 68% hit rate.

    - Officers average hit rate was 29% and they shot on average from 21 to 25 feet. Quite a departure from claims that average is arm's length to 21 feet.
    OK - not to argue with YOU - and I have NOT read the Article OR Book , BUT - did the "Study" use anecdotal evidence or Scientific
    Methodology?

    That quote about "Instinct" reeks of sensationalism - what does
    "street smarts" have to do with the DISCIPLINE of Instinctive shooting?

    Did someone actually COUNT every shot by the BGs to get a hit ratio?
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    The article says, "The Federal Bureau of Investigation's Criminal Justice Information Services Division recently published Violent Encounters: A stude of Felonious Assults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Offiicers (2006)."

    I get the impression that mathematical analysis was applied to data gleaned from police reports, but the article doesn't mention that; I'm sure the methodologies would be in the original works.

    I can't say if they count every shot, but it's probably as good of a source as any other, maybe better.

    Hoozyerdaddy,
    You might want to take the instinctive shooting with caution. The 'instinctive' shooting the BGs are talking about are point and shoot as evident in the statement, "...you have the instinct or you don't...". Plus the article suggests they are shooting gangsta style. So if one were going to copy the 'success' of the BGs, one would want to use the gangsta style since that's the method they use to get the 68% hits.

    The LEOs may very well be shooting instinctively too, in fact, most likely are. I think the big difference in the 68% and 29% is the BGs get to initiate the shooting so the BGs get to shoot at least once without being shot at where the LEOs are being shot at and have to return fire under fire, and maybe after being hit.
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    As much as people make fun of the gangster canting of the gun, that is a correct method for one handed instictive shooting.
    Also, their success rate is going to be higher because they start the fight. More often than not, their gun is in hand. Officers weapon is drawn for a holster and the LEO has the element of suprise to deal with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    As much as people make fun of the gangster canting of the gun, that is a correct method for one handed instictive shooting.
    Also, their success rate is going to be higher because they start the fight. More often than not, their gun is in hand. Officers weapon is drawn for a holster and the LEO has the element of suprise to deal with.
    Ahhh - we posted at the same time.

    I would question that gangsta style is a correct method for one-handed shooting. A slight rotation does seem beneficial for one hand, but the full 90° rotation causes recoil recovery problems. Not only does the gun recoil to the left (right handed shooter), it doesn't have the force of gravity helping to return the gun into position.

    While there's little doubt now that the gangsta style works to a degree, I would think it very premature to credit it with the 68% success. I think more credit goes, as we both pointed out, to the first shot, gun in hand, and the BG is not surprised. It is also interesting that the average range for the LEO is 21-25 feet. Something in the article gave me the impression that the 68% for the BGs was at 15 feet.

    It would be very interesting to see the percentage of hits for follow-up shots for BGs using the gangsta style.
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    Instinctive Shooting Turned 90 Degrees Sideways.
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    LOL, no, I wasnt talking the full 90 just a slight cant towards the inside of the shooters body.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    LOL, no, I wasnt talking the full 90 just a slight cant towards the inside of the shooters body.
    Gotcha! I wondered about that, but I thought I'd comment just for clarity.
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    As an added factor, unfortunately, many LEOs don't practice except at their once-a-year qualification. In my conversations, the public generally believes that all LEOs are great shooters. I really wish that was true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjmillig View Post
    As an added factor, unfortunately, many LEOs don't practice except at their once-a-year qualification. In my conversations, the public generally believes that all LEOs are great shooters. I really wish that was true.
    My impression as well. Sadly I think some would practice more if they had more opportunity and more support from their agency. A small number of LEOs are gun types and they can shoot!

    I've seen a couple of local LEOs do quals - it's scary pathetic. I don't mean that as a flame - they just don't get enough training. One guy I watched had to be talked through the reload.
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    As an added factor, unfortunately, many LEOs don't practice except at their once-a-year qualification. In my conversations, the public generally believes that all LEOs are great shooters. I really wish that was true.
    I think that alot of that has to do with location and even the overall attitude of the Department.

    Where I am at, a majority of those in my dept shoot quite a bit. We have access to several ranges, plus the Ozark National Forest, plus several like myself live far enough out that they can shoot in their yards. Several of the deputies are very active shooters and its apparent by their scores at the range.Of course, the fact that a most of us hunt doesn't hurt anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjmillig View Post
    As an added factor, unfortunately, many LEOs don't practice except at their once-a-year qualification. In my conversations, the public generally believes that all LEOs are great shooters. I really wish that was true.
    In addition to what Hotguns pointed out, a lot has to do with the bean counters too. The general public also believes that the gun is a main tool for an LEO. Truth is its not. It the least tool used on the street.
    SO, if a bean counter chief has $100.00 to spend on training you, where would he get the most return? Its not in firearms... perhaps a inv., driving, report writing, first aid, Taser, etc. The list is huge of what that money could be spent on.
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    Don't forget the gangstas shoot until empty and don't really care about innocent bystanders. The rest of the world is a little more discriminatory about who they shoot at.
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