CHL Badges

This is a discussion on CHL Badges within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by KenpoTex I'm failing to see where the badge comes into play in the above scenario...are you going to be waving it around ...

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  1. #196
    New Member Array civic2nr86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    I'm failing to see where the badge comes into play in the above scenario...are you going to be waving it around in your off hand or are you hoping that they're observant enough to notice it stuck to your belt?

    I rather hope that they are observant enough to see ANYTHING rather then being shot on the spot. I know we are all careful enough to assess the situation and identify the BG first, but can you say that about JOE cowboy behind you with a different POV, and taking things into his own hands? Just like drivers, you can only do what you can do and hope others do the same. Im not disagreeing about the badge but what will YOU do to buy yourself some extra time? Things don't always happen like you plan or see in your mind. Prepare for the worse and hope for the best?

    Worst case, you get shot by LE or a CCW'er after you've taken down the BG...at least you went down doing the right thing. If you're gonna jump in the game, you have to understand the risks.
    You gotta do whatever you can to lower that risk agreed? Besides the badge or whatnot, what can you do to buy yourself more time? Other's will probably not see things your way especially when there are so much anti gunners out there. So lets say you conceal this badge right by your concealed firearm, could that really be a bad thing? People are going to be scared either way when they see a gun, but a badge will calm the most extreme sheepie down.

    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    As a CHP holder I am not a first responder. If I hear gunshots my responsibility is to find cover and protect myself, my family and call 911, not to investigate and see what is going on. Going to check out what is happening is a good way to get yourself shot.
    If I walk into someplace as a shooting takes place, I duck right back out and call 911. I'm not a coward or insensitive but I'm just not a hero either.
    Quote Originally Posted by carver View Post

    IMHO, we as legally armed citizens have a responsibility that comes with the carrying of a gun. We are not the law! You can bet your sweet *** that if I hear gun fire while at the mall, I will head in the opposite direction! I have no urge to go see what has happened, it has happened! It's over, and I can't change it. I will not go in search of the BG, or a shoot out! If it comes to me, that's different! If, as in your second scenario, I should walk in accidentally on a robbery in progress, I would have to assess the situation. I am now a witness to a shooting. What are my responsibilities? Again, I am not the law. I have no authority to arrest, or detain anyone, and as a private citizen I can be charged with assault, or false imprisonment if I try. Not to mention that I might get shot! If the GG has just shot the BG, things will resolve themselves in short order. I will know that the GG is the GG. If it turns out that the BG has shot the GG, I might get shot because I'm a witness. If he's standing there with a gun in his hand, not trying to flee after just commiting murder in front of a witness, then he is a nut. Anyway, if he's the BG, and a nut, he already has a gun in his hand, and he's looking at me. How much of a chance do you think I would have if I tried to draw on him while standing in the open?

    And no badge for me! No one will know I'm carrying untill I draw my weapon. I will never draw my weapon unless a life is threatened! When I do draw it, I will shoot till the threat goes away!
    Again, things are not going to be what you expected. You do not know the mind of the robber, or the other innocent people around you. I would think everyone would be high strung and may act differently and illogically. Instead of hearing gun shot, lets say you are smack dab in the middle of the robbery and/or being rob yourself. You shoot the BG and another CCW holder from a different vantage point takes you down. What do you suggest will buy you time when SHTF? Again, a badge will calm the most extreme sheepies down, in most cases. Also, again, I am not saying it is a good idea, but what else can be done?

    You cannot expect others to think logically anytime a gun is presented. I know we all here can assess the situation if needed, but there is always that chance of a hothead that you guys fear most who is most likely the cop wanna be you guys speak of, and what is to convince him that you did not just killed and rob the BG?



    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    If you want a badge which in effect says "I have a weapon," then why not just move to open carry carry state. Otherwise, if you want a badge, then become a LEO or joint the military where there will be no question about the probability of your carrying, and that way you will not get accidentally shot.
    If they cannot see your weapon, how can they see your badge if it is in the same area? When you draw your weapon (i know you will only draw if you have to, then your badge may or may not be exposed, and it may or may not buy you more time, but wouldn't you rather stack the odds in your favor? What can YOU do to buy you more time? Again people will be in a state of panic, shock, anything that can make them think irrationally, and if JOE cowboy just walks in and sees you just shot someone, everyone else is freaking out and screaming, how does that look like you're a GG? He may just draw on you, or he may just shoot you. AND if he just draws on you, what is to stop YOU from thinking he is an ACCOMPLICE in your current state of mind? Do you honestly know exactly what you will do when the situation arises where you will HAVE to draw your weapon according to your standards? Your senses may be all out of whacked and you may not be able to think clearly, just like JOE cowboy.

    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    I'll pass.

    I don't think the badge is a good idea and I don't think this thing is a good idea either.

    Being a permit holder gives you no official standing or authority so it is best not to wear any item that may convey that you do have any type of official authority.

    I'm just an ordinary guy, who has had a little training and had a background check run on him. I'm not a cop. I will wear nothing that gives anyone, LEO or private person, any chance to think otherwise.



    That is a great post and very nearly identical to how I feel.
    I agree, but what is YOUR idea?

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  3. #197
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    In my opinion every scenario that anyone has come up with for using a badge reeks of mall ninja and poor judgement on the part of the CWP holder(s). If you have time to worry about a badge in making a decision to shoot or not could put be put to better use running and going back home watching Dirty Harry again.

  4. #198
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    IMHO, badges are for LEOs; they earned them and they keep earning them every day.

    My training will 'kick in' if it becomes necessary.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  5. #199
    New Member Array civic2nr86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    In my opinion every scenario that anyone has come up with for using a badge reeks of mall ninja and poor judgement on the part of the CWP holder(s). If you have time to worry about a badge in making a decision to shoot or not could put be put to better use running and going back home watching Dirty Harry again.
    Once again, its not me im worried about, and like I said the idea of a badge doesn't appeal to me as well, but what else can buy you time without saying a word? I agree that some of these scenarios includes poor judgement from CWP holder(s) but just like drivers, you can only guarantee that you do your job, you cannot speak for anyone else. It is not about the decision to shoot, the decision has already been made, now how will you survive if another acts instinctively?

  6. #200
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    May I ask have any of the advocates of these Wanna Be Badges ever been in a life and death situation?
    The reason I ask is one old cliche keeps coming to mind as I wade through all the rationales for a Wanna Be Badge
    Keep
    It
    Simple
    Stupid
    We train and practice to condition our bodies and minds. Our lives depend upon immediate instinctive intuitive reactions in the midst of the screaming smoke blood and stench. To the identify threat(s) focus on the target move off the X fire check your six fire move fire move reload. Where in any of that is there is there time to get that precious Wanna Be Badge? What are you going to do with it? Choose to shot one handed so you can hold it over your head screaming I am a good guy? If so I can guarantee you that NO ONE will care NO ONE will even see it. All they will see is GUN. They will not be able to tell if you are black white or an alien. They will not be able to tell if your hair is green red black brown or bald. They will not see if you have red polka dot jeans or a Louis Raphel suit. All they will know is that you have a HUGE GUN about a 150 caliber with a two foot barrel. If you dont believe that ask the LEO here or better yet go read the police reports of people who have been robbed at gun point. In any one robbery you rarely if ever find any two descriptions that match.
    Or do you plan on showing it to LEO when they arrive to an active shooting call sirens blaring adrenaline pumped. When they order you to drop the gun, to get on your knees and you reach for your Wanna Be Badge located where people carry their gun, what do you think will happen? They are going to run up and give you the keys to the city? Or will they pump you full of lead?
    Look at the forum here there must be a couple of hundred years of combat experience and knowledge here. Men who have bled and shed blood. Men who have seen the horror. Both here and abroad. NOT ONE advocates the Wanna Be Badge. Maybe there is a reason?
    I am not so stuck on stupid as to insist that my delusional fantasy imaginings of what it might be like over rides what experienced men universally tell me it is a bad idea.
    But hey if you know it all go for it. Its a free country. If you do. Can you will me your guns? I'll cut a notch in them in your memory.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  7. #201
    New Member Array civic2nr86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    May I ask have any of the advocates of these Wanna Be Badges ever been in a life and death situation?
    The reason I ask is one old cliche keeps coming to mind as I wade through all the rationales for a Wanna Be Badge
    Keep
    It
    Simple
    Stupid
    We train and practice to condition our bodies and minds. Our lives depend upon immediate instinctive intuitive reactions in the midst of the screaming smoke blood and stench. To the identify threat(s) focus on the target move off the X fire check your six fire move fire move reload. Where in any of that is there is there time to get that precious Wanna Be Badge? What are you going to do with it? Choose to shot one handed so you can hold it over your head screaming I am a good guy? If so I can guarantee you that NO ONE will care NO ONE will even see it. All they will see is GUN. They will not be able to tell if you are black white or an alien. They will not be able to tell if your hair is green red black brown or bald. They will not see if you have red polka dot jeans or a Louis Raphel suit. All they will know is that you have a HUGE GUN about a 150 caliber with a two foot barrel. If you dont believe that ask the LEO here or better yet go read the police reports of people who have been robbed at gun point. In any one robbery you rarely if ever find any two descriptions that match.
    Or do you plan on showing it to LEO when they arrive to an active shooting call sirens blaring adrenaline pumped. When they order you to drop the gun, to get on your knees and you reach for your Wanna Be Badge located where people carry their gun, what do you think will happen? They are going to run up and give you the keys to the city? Or will they pump you full of lead?
    Look at the forum here there must be a couple of hundred years of combat experience and knowledge here. Men who have bled and shed blood. Men who have seen the horror. Both here and abroad. NOT ONE advocates the Wanna Be Badge. Maybe there is a reason?
    I am not so stuck on stupid as to insist that my delusional fantasy imaginings of what it might be like over rides what experienced men universally tell me it is a bad idea.
    But hey if you know it all go for it. Its a free country. If you do. Can you will me your guns? I'll cut a notch in them in your memory.

    Why would you wave it above your head? Cops don't wave it, why should you? Just keep it concealed with your gun? You need your gun, the badge may show? Bystanders may or may not see it, but if it CAN buy you more time, why the animosity? Sounds like it is in your head that everyone that has it will flaunt it and show it and wave it all around. Sounds like everyone will try to play wanna be cop or hero or what not. What do you suggest then?

    What does all your training have to do with the man that is about to shoot you thinking ur the BG? Yea you have training, does he?

    Im just playing devil's advocate here but you are getting all bent out of shape, this reasoning is perfectly sound to me, not saying that I would order one, but anything helps, and if these people want to flaunt it around then that is just darwinism waiting to happen. There are still people who are discrete about it and would probably only want to use it to stack the odds in their favor to prevent being shot.

    Things happen and it happens fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenInColo View Post
    IMHO, badges are for LEOs; they earned them and they keep earning them every day.

    My training will 'kick in' if it becomes necessary.
    What about the other guy's training, or lack of?
    Last edited by civic2nr86; October 27th, 2008 at 03:18 AM. Reason: addition

  8. #202
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by civic2nr86 View Post

    Take this for example, you are the first responder to a robbery at the mall or something. You fire upon the BG, what is to stop someone else from shooting you when all they heard was a gunshot an came to investigate? Or the other way around, you walk into an establishment right as the GG just shot the BG, if you are untrained, you'll most likely draw upon the GG and in return he'll think you are the BG's accomplice and shoot at you as well. This could happen in any scenario where LE are not first on scene.
    Why in the world are you a “first responder”. You’re not an LEO, and while you have the authority to carry a concealed weapon you do not have Law Enforcement Authority.

    Sure there may be a time and place where you have no choice but get involved. But in your scenario, I can assure you, I’ll be headed the other direction.
    Last edited by JD; October 27th, 2008 at 03:33 PM. Reason: Quoting wrong person, fixed quotes. :D

  9. #203
    Member Array laeckcrov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tns0038 View Post
    Why in the world are you a “first responder”. You’re not an LEO, and while you have the authority to carry a concealed weapon you do not have Law Enforcement Authority.

    Sure there may be a time and place where you have no choice but get involved. But in your scenario, I can assure you, I’ll be headed the other direction.

    +1 as a CHL holder you should not be a responder to any situation you are not immediately involved in. By this i mean if you aren't in the room when SHTF, or directly involved, you sure as heck shouldn't run in with guns blazing. The only responders should be LEOs and EMTs, LEOs to put holes in the BG, and EMTs to patch the holes in anyone else. I am not saying if you are in a convenience store and SHTF, to sneak out the back and run away, but when you are across the street from the same convenience store and you hear shots, don't run in.

    If i were in a SHTF scenario, and had to shoot an armed BG, and some dude ran in with his gun out, first thing I'm going to do is make sure he's not LEO, second thing I'm going to do is shoot him.

    Your gun is a defensive tool, not an offensive weapon

    Toting a badge around makes you a wanna-be offensive weapon, or responder, not a defender.
    The muzzle end of a .45 pretty much says, "Go Away" in every language.

    Fast is fine, accuracy is final. Learn to be slow in a hurry.

    "I never met a man that had been in a gunfight and wished that he had a smaller gun. Ever."

  10. #204
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by civic2nr86 View Post
    I know this thread is a couple months old, but I did not want to start another.

    There are a lot of animosity against CCW Badges and what not, and I am not very fond of it as well.

    Many see this as a problem with LEO's but there are plenty of scenario where it can prevent you from being shot by another armed civilian.

    Take this for example, you are the first responder to a robbery at the mall or something. You fire upon the BG, what is to stop someone else from shooting you when all they heard was a gunshot an came to investigate? Or the other way around, you walk into an establishment right as the GG just shot the BG, if you are untrained, you'll most likely draw upon the GG and in return he'll think you are the BG's accomplice and shoot at you as well. This could happen in any scenario where LE are not first on scene.

    When you have to use your firearm in public, its not just the LEO's you have to worry about. What is worst than getting shot at by a LEO for saving someone's life? Getting shot by another CCW holder, thinking your the BG.
    For all the thoughts and info on why CHL Badges are a bad idea, you can reference the thread: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...hl-badges.html it's closed for further replies, but has been made a sticky for reference as to why we don't like this asinine topic.

    All other posts that were posted in response to civic's question have been removed, after a brief review, I will add them to the closed CHL Badge thread that I referenced above and it will remain locked.

  11. #205
    Member Array Frisco's Avatar
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    Yet another piece of faux tacticoolgear for the wannabe...almost, I say, ALMOST as bad as the guy who wears a t-shirt with POLICE printed on it, black BDU's, and drives a de-commissioned Crown Vic from an auction sale.

  12. #206
    VIP Member Array old grunt's Avatar
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    K.I.S.S.

    I'm Retired so I'm "lucky enough" to have a retired ID Card and a dupe shield. Having said that I try my hardest to be a "gray man" and blend into the background and NOT advertise the fact I'm carrying. If I have to let an officer know it will be verbally loud("I'm armed and a retired officer"etc.)with my hands EMPTY and in PLAIN SIGHT. The ID or CCW Permit will be shown when and how that officer asks AFTER I comply with his directions. It's not a bad concept, but cops are looking for shields and correct terms(NY>>>"I'm on the job!!")to identify off-duty or UC cops and are NOT tuned into CCW holders. Just keep it simple!!
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  13. #207
    Member Array CTurner91's Avatar
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    I wouldn't carry a badge, but I can see why others might.. at the very least flashing it might keep the first on scene Officer from shooting you on sight.

  14. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTurner91 View Post
    I wouldn't carry a badge, but I can see why others might.. at the very least flashing it might keep the first on scene Officer from shooting you on sight.
    As has been said before, an LEO doesn't charge into the scene shooting everything in sight. Even if you have a gun in your hand, unless you are giving the LEO some idea that you have an intention of hurting someone with it, you aren't getting shot.
    The muzzle end of a .45 pretty much says, "Go Away" in every language.

    Fast is fine, accuracy is final. Learn to be slow in a hurry.

    "I never met a man that had been in a gunfight and wished that he had a smaller gun. Ever."

  15. #209
    VIP Member Array Ridgeline's Avatar
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    I just don't understand why anyone would want to tip their hand that they are carrying... to an LEO, the typical sheep, and for sure not a BG?
    "Eternity is Too Long to be Wrong"

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  16. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by laeckcrov View Post
    As has been said before, an LEO doesn't charge into the scene shooting everything in sight. Even if you have a gun in your hand, unless you are giving the LEO some idea that you have an intention of hurting someone with it, you aren't getting shot.
    It has also been said many times: LEO's don't respond to a shooting and look for badges -- bad guys can easily get official looking badges too, the local pawn shops are overflowing with all kinds of badges that you can't read from more than 5-10 feet away. If they respond and see an unrecognized, excited individual with a gun who does not immediately stand down or convincingly identify themselves as good guys within about a fraction of a second, then they will quite likely shoot regardless of whether a badge is visible or not. There have been some undercover/off-duty officers shot on the job because responding patrol units didn't know they were LEO, and I'm sure they were identifying themselves as such.
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