This is a discussion on CHL Badges within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ltc-usa Oh man. I get up on a Sunday, tired and with a minor hangover. CCW badges? Please say it ain't so. ...
I hate the fact they sew badges on security uniforms, I also dislike people purchasing ccw badges and displaying them. It takes away a huge element in our arsenal, and that is the element of surprise. It also makes you look like a goof, and could get you into more trouble than it could keep you out of (in my mind anyhow)
"A government is like fire, a handy servant, but a dangerous master." -- George Washington
Guns good, Badges Bad.!
quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Why need a badge?! Concealed carry is exactly that, concealed! Why would anyone advertise it? You want to act like you a cop for something? Stupid idea!
"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."
I saw somebody wearing a CHL Badge on his belt yesterday in a gas station here in Lawton, Oklahoma. It took everything I had not to do this:
Join the NRA!
The Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting. It is about keeping the government in check. This requires that the citizenry is well armed and at all times has immediate access to arms.
Legally Armed I.D. Pouch
Legally Armed I.D. Pouch ™
Currently there are over 6,500,000 Legally Armed Citizens in the U.S.A., and the numbers are increasing. Unfortunately, there have been some bad incidents between these citizens and law enforcement officers. The result of these encounters has resulted in dead citizens. This also happens when Law Enforcement Officers do not identify each other fast enough. Immediate identification is a MUST after a shooting incident when police arrive on the scene, or anytime a Legally Armede Citizen wants some party to know they are authorized to carry a weapon. This is why we developed the Legally Armed I.D. Pouch ™.
Law enforcement officers occassionally shoot each other during official business and off-duty incidents. It became so bad in New York City, that in addition to displaying a badge, verbal communication was implemented as an additional measure to demonstrate the person was a 'good guy' versus a thug. This verbal identification is "I'm on the job". Both this verbal identifier and displaying a badge, helped to reduce 'friendly fire' incidents. This form of identification has helped those in law enforcement, but what about the Legally Armed Citizen? The verbal identification in addition to the Legally Armed I.D. Pouch ™ is "I'm Legally Armed". This protocal is necessary since there are more Legally Armed Citizens than Law Enforcement Officers.
Permit holder badges [see photo example below] are available at gun stores, gun shows, and on the Internet. The theory behind these badges is that they can identify the person wearing this badge as being legally armed and a 'good guy' versus a 'bad guy'. It also helps a person who is carrying in the open [visible] in states that allow 'open' carry, to have some form of identification that can be seen when carrying in the 'open'. Another reason is to identify the person after a shooting incident when law enforcement arrives on the scene, as being legally armed. However, the majority of law enforcement officers find these badges offensive. They believe they look too much like police. Some states like New Mexico, have enacted laws that make it a violation of their state law to carry any item that would make the person look like a Law Enforcement Officer, when the person was not a Law Enforcement Officer. Permit holder badges fall in that category.
People who speak against permit holder badges also say that they are worn by police wann-a-be's. Some police think the same thing & harass people who wear them. One state, New Mexico, has enacted a law that any form of identification that looks like law enforcement, is against the law. This would include the permit holder badge. So, what can be used to help a Legally Armed Citizens be identified immediately, and also not look like they are trying to impersonate a police officer. First, lets examine an actual incident where a legally armed citizens was shot and killed by police by mistake.
Boutique World Beauty Supply Store in Madison, Tennessee, sold women's wear and boutique items. Chong Hwan An owned this store with his wife. There had been a number of armed robberies in this Nashville area. Store owners were nervous and they had good reasons to be. In a few incidents, after the owners gave the robbers the money, they were then beaten.
Jennifer Szostecki and her male partner entered Boutique World Beauty Supply Store. As soon as she entered, she took some clothes at random and entered the dressing area. Mr. An seeing this, thought there was going to be trouble and motioned to his wife to be on alert. His thoughts turned out to be correct. When Szostecki emerged from the dressing area, she held a gun and so did her male accomplice. They demanded money. Mr. An opened the register and handed over $ 1,300. As the armed robbers began to leave the store, Mr. An pulled his .40 caliber Glock and started to shoot at the armed robbers. Mr. An was a legally armed citizen who possessedd a Tennessee Handgun Permit. However, being a store owner in Tennessee also allowed him to possess a firearm on his store premises without a permit. Sztosecki and her partner shot back at Mr. An. He returned fire. No one was shot inside this small store. Because of the small space within the store, the noise was deafening. When the armed robbers left the store, they carjacked a woman and began to flee. Mr. An left the safety of his store, ran outside, and began to fire at the fleeing armed robbers.
Law Enforcement Officers On The Scene
About the same time Mr. An was shooting at the fleeing robbers, two Nashville Police Officers were leaving a restaurant in the same strip mall. Hearing shots being fired, they took cover behind a vehicle. They saw Mr. An with a gun in his hand. Not knowing what occurred, they yelled at Mr. An to drop his weapon. Mr. An, because of the extreme noise in his store from the gun fire, probably could not hear very well. He turned towards the police officers with his gun in his hand. Because the officers felt threatened by the gun, they both fired. Mr. An was pronounced dead on the scene. No fault was found with the actions of the Nashville Metro Police Officers in this incident. The Nashville Police Officer who was involved in this unfortunate incident has told us the I.D. Pouch is a great idea. It might have not helped Mr. An because the officer yelled at him eight (8) times that he was 'police' and to drop his weapon. The one grey area in this incident is because the officer had a northern accent versus a southern accent, witnesses said they thought they heard him shout 'Please' versus 'Police'. Whatever heppened, the outcome is the same and cannot be altered.
Again, the actual officer involved in this shooting has said the the Legally Armed I.D. Pouch ™ is a good idea. Other Law Enforcement Officers accross the country agree with him. They like this form of identifer because it does not look like a police badge and, they also realize that this is valid way for a 'good guy' to identify himself or herself to any officer at what might be a very dangerous and stressful situation. Look at this pouch and consider if you wore one at a dangerous time, would it help you identify yourself as a legally armed person and, might it help you stay alive.
Identification For Legally Armed Citizens
Unlike the incident at the Boutique World Beauty Supply Store, most shooting incidents occur at dusk or in the night. How can a Legally Armed Citizen take measures to identify himself or herself without causing problems with law enforcement. The Legally Armed I.D. Pouch ™ below is just the item. It is something that can be seen at night because of the safety fabric [especially when hit by the light from a flashlight of a law enforcement officer or a police vehicle]. It does not say anything about law enforcement or have a badge that looks like police. To have an identifier that is not seen until the wearer wants it to be seen [check-out examples below]. The inside has Velcro to keep it closed. The back portion of the pouch has an opening for a belt or chain. This can be worn on a belt, around the neck, or on a purse. It can also be kept inside a pocket only to be shown when required. The bottom portion has plastic and an opening where a license or permit is kept. When open, the person is able to display their authorization to carry a weapon. In addition to the pouch behind the plastic for the license or permit, there is also a separate opening for a legally armed checklist form that is included with each I.D. Pouch. Information is kept on this form incase the person is every involved in a defensive shooting incident, and they cannot remember information or data that could help them at a critical time.
The concept is simple. This same identifer system is currently being used by our military in current war zones. Reflector fabric is attached to their uniform when they want helicopters to know they are on the same side when seen on the ground and, by their own troops.
The I.D. pouch has 'safety reflector fabric' at the top that can be seen immediately.
This is especially helpful at night if hit by the headlights of a police vehicle,
or flashlight of law enforcement officer.
Here is a photo with an actual handgun permit behind the plastic.
This permit is from the state of Tennessee however, a license or permit from any state will fit in this pouch.
There is a pocket behind the plastic where we have placed a card that you fill-in with information and data
that will help you if you are ever involved in a self-defense shooting. Because of the stress you will be under at
that time, you will probably not be able to remember information that could assist you.
This card has the data that will help you at a very diffucult time.
Another card has all the states that honor your license or permit to carry.
The Legally Armed I.D. Pouch ™ will:
1. Immediately show your authorization to carry a firearm.
2. Be identified at all hours of the day or night, by law enforcement officers because of the reflector fabric.
3. Keeps your autorization to carry within reach at all times.
4. Prevents digging in pockets for your CCW License or Permit.
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
Uh-Oh! Heck....I'm still looking for my back window "ARMED" decal from down south!
I hate statistics.
I'll just keep my CCW permit in my wallet right next to my driver's license.
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
What happens when you reach to lift up for shirt to get your permit and cop see's the firearm concealed on your hip.... No thanks.... In the wallet and telling the officer you have a permit is good enough for me
Plus I wouldn't want to have reflectors on my belt friends or others may see it as it wouldn't blend into my clothing type.
I believe in gun control...... Thats why I use TWO hands.
If it becomes popular then BG can tell who may be carrying. Good Luck.
Um.. No Thanks
"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier
and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the
service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the
love and thanks of man and woman."
-- Thomas Paine (The American Crisis, No. 1, 19 December 1776)
Dang...... spewed out coffee all over my keyboard and monitor......
would it not make more sense to have the reflective material on the outside of the pouch.
since it does not it is no different than opening my wallet to show my CHL
not many on this forum want too many people knowing they carry a gun. including me.
The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong.