I'd rather die than shoot anyone! - Page 6

I'd rather die than shoot anyone!

This is a discussion on I'd rather die than shoot anyone! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In that case, it would be far, far better for you to kill yourself now. If you allow a BG to kill you, that will ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    In that case, it would be far, far better for you to kill yourself now. If you allow a BG to kill you, that will only encourage them in their career of murder and mayhem. Maybe their next victim would have preferred to stay alive.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan


  2. #77
    BGR
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    The last time I had this conversation I brought up the idea that anyone that might take my life may have killed before or will kill again. So by me killing him I may be saving several lives. He was coming from the religious idea of shall not kill. But I could tell that he was looking at it different after my point.

  3. #78
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGR View Post
    The last time I had this conversation I brought up the idea that anyone that might take my life may have killed before or will kill again. So by me killing him I may be saving several lives. He was coming from the religious idea of shall not kill. But I could tell that he was looking at it different after my point.
    BGR,

    People of that belief are easy to defuse as all one needs to do is advise them to _re read_ their Bible and reference the 'Ten Commandments' that they incorrectly think they have memorized.
    The Commandment is "Thou shall not murder", it is not 'Thou shall not kill' as is commonly thought and/or misunderstood.
    Further all through out the Bible there is direct reference by Jesus toward killing and smiting by God's hand directly and/or that of man toward those who have it coming in addition to defense of ones own self.

    Below are just a few reference points to bookmark and provide to folk the next time it comes up:
    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
    * http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...=20&version=31
    * http://bibleresources.bible.com/pass...+20&version=49

    - Janq

    "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death; I will fear no evil; For thou art with me; Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me." - 23rd Psalm
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #79
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    none

    I guess its time to thin the herd. This is what is called terminal dumb @#$.

  5. #80
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    BGR,

    Inadvertently while today looking for definition toward a totally different subject in regard to the Bible I came across the following at the 'Bible Study Page' as relevant to your theologian friend.
    I'll quote the whole entry below...


    The 23rd Pslam
    A SERMON OUTLINE By Dr. James Modlish



    The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death
    (Psalm 23:4)



    Intro:

    A religion that does not prepare its adherents to die, is a shame. Some say, "all they want is your money" are correct without death preparation.



    I. It's and inevitable valley -

    Princess Di - (Rom. 6:23; 7:24-25)



    II. Evil is connected to it - (Heb. 2:14)

    As negative as all this sounds, God has two items of comfort for us through the valley.

    A. The Rod - A strong sapling with the roots whittled down to make a club - it could be thrown with amazing speed and accuracy.

    [1]. A symbol of Strength and Authority (Ex. 4:1-5,17,20) - So the scriptures must be the Rod!
    [2]. Used to discipline - If the shepherd saw the sheep wandering away, or approaching poisonous weeds, or getting too close to danger, the rod would go whistling thru the air to remind the sheep of the parameters. There is a great blessing knowing the boundaries (Exe. 20:33-38). Does not the Word discipline us?
    [3]. Used to examine us - The skilled shepherd took his rod and parted the wool to look close to determine the condition of the skin etc. You cannot "pull the wool over His eyes" (Ps. 139:23,24) - The Word looks below the surface.
    [4]. It is an instrument of protection both for himself and the sheep - The skilled shepherd uses his rod to drive off predators. After a life time of being under the protection of the book, it will comfort you in the valley.

    B. The Staff - Is essentially a symbol of concern. Normally a long, slender stick, often with a crook or hook on one end. A picture of the Holy Spirit - do not go without it (Ex. 12:11).

    [1]. Draws sheep together into an intimate relationship - The shepherd uses his staff to gently lift a newborn lamb and bring it to its mother without leaving human scent and risking rejection. The Holy Spirit is intrinsically involved in the new birth process (Jn. 3:1-8).
    [2]. Used for guiding sheep (Jud. 6:19-23 - confirmation) thru difficult terrain and passages. It is not an instrument to beat with, but to touch with and often used to stay in touch - after years of salvation sensing the touch of the Spirit - the valley of death will be one of shadows (Rom. 8:16).
    [3]. An instrument of rescue - on steep cliffs, brambles, etc.
    [4]. Connected with faith - (Heb. 11:21)

    Death is the last enemy - (1 Cor. 15:25-26; Song Sol. 2:4)


    What will not prepare you for death!

    A. Prominence (Acts 26:27-28) - Becoming a Christian is the result of persuading (Acts 28:23-24), the more prominent, the more difficult it is to be persuaded. In the New testament it was always the common people who responded.

    B. Religion (Jn. 3) - notice what's missing in the equation - ceremony etc.

    Birth implies:

    [1]. A time experience
    [2]. No past
    [3]. A new beginning
    [4]. A new name

    C. Works (Eph. 2:8-9; Tit. 3:5-8)

    - At Princess Di's funeral there was no sermon, only the briefest illusion to "Christ, who died for you." the emphasis was on works!

    - Mother Theresa lived more righteous than most, I applaud her works, but it is not her works that need to be emulated to die with salvation. But for sake of conversation, let's say she is the standard - Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell what he had and give to the poor - have you done it? You better be thankful it's "not of works".

    Thank God these are not the necessary ingredients, for if they were could you qualify?

    Source - http://www.thebiblestudypage.com/psalm_4.shtml
    Overall subject index - http://www.thebiblestudypage.com/psalmmain.shtml
    I hope this proves useful for you in the future.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #81
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    I just don't understand people who will be led to the slaughter!! Steve48

  7. #82
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    Limatunes said it better than I could. (Well done, Lima!)

    I investigated a rape-murder where the victim had stated that she could more easily be killed than to kill somebody else. Sadly, it happened just that way.

    Another rape I investigated was my paramedic partner. She came to me afterward and asked me to teach her to shoot her brand new Smith model 19.

    I did.

    Her attacker returned.

    He never troubled anyone again.

    She was no-billed.
    "Deine Papieren bitte?" or "ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ !"
    (Choose only one)
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  8. #83
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    I respect someone who would really take it like Gandhi did. It has been my experience that these people are few and far between. Lots of them say that they wouldn't fight back but they do. Later the are shocked that someone would actually attack, rape, rob them.

    They do not understand until to late that there are people who do not care about you. That you are just a thing to be expolited by them. They do not realize that there is evil walking in this world until it touches them. They will never understand it until it does touch them.

    In my experience those like Gandhi, the ones with more strength than I have, who willingly take it and then ask for more to make you realize the error of your ways know there is evil. They just choose to confront it a different way, a way that I can not. I have to fight, I can not choose not to.
    Last edited by pgrass101; May 30th, 2007 at 01:26 PM.
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  9. #84
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    Let me clarify my stance real quick. (I said quick.. haha.. I LIED!! MUHAHAHAHAHA... anyway...)

    While I think a vast majority of the people who make the statement "I would rather die than kill anyone" haven't fully thought things through, not everyone who says that is full of it.

    There are a precious few out there who have weighed the consequences, known them, and accept them in the name of peace. Certain religious sects are better at this than others like the Quakers or the Amish, but even people outside of the religious world do fully understand the risks, accept them and still try to live by their ways of peace.

    Usually, if they fully understand the consequences they will admit to fighting back as much as possible up to death, but they will not take a life.

    My mother for instance...

    My mother is a fabulous, understanding and gentle woman.

    When she found out that I carried a concealed weapon she asked me if I really thought I could kill someone in my own defense.

    Because I had put much consideration into that very question, without hesitation, I said, "Yes."

    She didn't questions further. She knows why I believe I could.

    Instead, she thought about it for a minute and said, "I don't think I could do it. I have nothing against people who could. Everyone has a right to their life and I know I would fight like I've never fought before, but I don't think I could pull out a gun and shoot someone, even if my own life was in danger.
    "I could and would use things like mace or pepper spray and I wouldn't roll over and let them hurt me, but I think once I had that gun in my hand and I pointed it at another human being I would loose my nerve. Even if I DIDN'T loose my nerve and I DID shoot, that's a big "if." If I didn't shoot and just couldn't shoot, the gun would probably be taken away from me and used on me and it would be a liability. Therefore, me with a gun would be a bad combination."

    I applaud her for her self-analysis.

    As many people who are out there who say, "I couldn't kill anyone for any reason," and prove that they really could when push comes to shove; I'm sure there are people who say, "I could kill if I had to," and freeze at the moment of truth and can't pull the trigger.

    The real trick is not just making a blanket statement on principle but basing the decision on self analysis and consideration.

    While there are people who say they couldn't kill in self defense who haven't really considered the weight of the statement they are making, there are certainly people who say they could kill if they had to and haven't considered the weight of that choice either.

    The people who say they couldn't are borrowing on the belief that they are making the world a better place by supporting peace, those who think they could are supporting the notion that the life of a good citizen and their family is more important the life of a scumbag who's threatening the life of the good.

    BOTH are right and good causes, but that doesn't mean all consequences of those choices should be abandoned on principle.

    Self evaluation and ONLY self evaluation will help a person determine whether they believe they could use lethal force or not and even then you'll never know until that moment of truth arrives (which I pray it never does, to anyone).

    You shouldn't carry because your husband wants you to (or wife in some cases) or because you like the IDEA of being able to lethally defend yourself. You shouldn't carry because your neighbor does and you're trying to keep up with the Jones'. You shouldn't carry to make a statement. You shouldn't carry just to scare or to intimidate. You should only carry if you have weighed all of the consequences and determined that you, yourself, and no one else, believe you could lethally defend yourself if your life was in danger.

    And every one of us has a different level of involvement we will accept.

    Some of us will only use lethal force to defend our own life and the life of family, and be a good witness for others, while others have said they would get involved if they saw a complete stranger in peril. I have my own opinions about how involved I will get, but I don't think any of those standards are "wrong" either. That is their choice and good for them for actually considering those circumstances and drawing a line. More people should follow their example.

    On the same token, good for the people who have drawn the line and said, "I'm sorry, but I don't think I could do it. I have nothing against people who could, but I can't. I'll get some pepper spray or something."

    They have considered what it would be like to live in pain, they have considered how far they would fight and what they will accept. Often these people (like my mother) would kill to defend their children or another family member, but not themselves, they believe the trauma and aftermath of killing someone would be worse than death to them and that very well may be true for them.

    At least they are being honest and we should respect them and their decision like we respect the decisions of those who say they would only use lethal force in limited situations. They have self evaluated, they have mentally tested their boundaries and found the line they don't believe they could cross. There is no shame in that, nor should we try to induce shame for that stand or call those people weak for coming to that conclusion. It takes a lot of guts to stand up and say, "I don't think I could do that."

    Often these people are misunderstood as the people who haven't truly looked into every aspect of their decision making paradigm.

    Let's be careful we don't call some honest and humble people "sheeple" just for coming to the conclusion they couldn't kill someone.
    Last edited by limatunes; May 30th, 2007 at 01:35 PM.

  10. #85
    JD
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    What she said, +1000

  11. #86
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    Great post lima - and your Mom's rationale is very meaningful.

    I guess the real struggle coming to terms with folks who out-and-out claim ''they'd rather die'' is based on a sorta disbelief that anyone could actually (seemingly) wish for that option, when for most of us life is so very precious.

    I have zero wish to take a life - but if faced with a threat to my own or loved one's - then I know I have to act - coupled with the fact that another's attempt on my life is so blatently a declaration of malicious intent - meaning my own right to life is compromized. They do not have that right - and I must counter it.

    I guess tho we do have to look across a broad base of thinking.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  12. #87
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    Once again Lima you are spot on. I have said in this board many times that I will kill only in defense of my family and myself.

    But if I look inside myself, and ask the questions that Lima has I know this is false. I could not willingly stand by and let a stranger get harmed while doing nothing. I would have to intervene. I would make sure that my family is safe, but I could not live with myself if I just stood by and did nothing.

    I would do what I had to to stop the threat as fast as possible. I unfortuantly understand volience and how it is used. You use as much as you can to accomplish what ever goal you have. Sevearl good people on this board understand this, and everyone in prison does. The difference between just use of volience and unjust is the reason for it and when it stops.

    Most sheeple and those who have either not experienced it first hand or realize what it truly means, are shocked when they truly see volience. That is why the military and police train so hard, so that training over rides the surprise. That is why we train like we do. Evil is present in the world some people just refuse to believe it, until it touches them.
    Last edited by pgrass101; May 30th, 2007 at 01:50 PM.
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  13. #88
    OD*
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    We had a couple come in the shop I worked at many years ago and the wife said she could never ever take the life of someone else, my partner said he could turn her into a stone killer in the blink of an eye. Well, she argued there was absolutely noway that could ever happen, Jerry said "give me a propane torch and your youngest child" she had no rebuttal, because she knew the truth of the matter.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD View Post
    We had a couple come in the shop I worked at many years ago and the wife said she could never ever take the life of someone else, my partner said he could turn her into a stone killer in the blink of an eye. Well, she argued there was absolutely noway that could ever happen, Jerry said "give me a propane torch and your youngest child" she had no rebuttal, because she knew the truth of the matter.
    Very good example of someone who hasn't thought through their statements. I'm sure she went away with a lot to think about.

    I don't have kids yet but I already know that if ANYONE touches my child and I'm around to defend them, the coroner is going to be digging JHP .45s out of his body for a week.

  15. #90
    OD*
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    Nothing meaner, nor more deadly, than a mad momma bear, Lima.

    I'm sure she went away with a lot to think about.
    They actually walked out of the shop with his and her snubbies and the business card of a local trainer. That one brief sentence, was all it took to open her eyes to the reality of the world.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

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